Long 4

[bayonet]

Perhaps you Kenpoist out there can shed some light on this subject. Why do some schools/clubs/associations teach Long 4 at 2nd Brown and others require Long 4 for Shodan? And BTW I know what Infinite Insights #5 reads...

 

[KenpoDave]

Perhaps you Kenpoist out there can shed some light on this subject. Why do some schools/clubs/associations teach Long 4 at 2nd Brown and others require Long 4 for Shodan? And BTW I know what Infinite Insights #5 reads...

The Tracy System teaches it at 3rd brown.

 

[michaeledward]

Our school teaches the forms and sets as listed below.

Form 4 is where it is because it is the natural progression.

Learn the basic moves in 1 and 2.
The 3's are against grabs, because they are less dangerous than punches.
4 is against the next highest level of danger, punches.

• Yellow - Short 1 - Block Set 1
• Orange - Long 1 - Strike Set 1
• Purple - Short 2 - Coordination Set 1 - Stance Set 1
• Blue - Long 2 - Finger Set 1
• Green - Coordination Set 2 - Strike Set 2
• 3rd Brown - Short 3 - Blocking Set 2
• 2nd Brown - Long 3 - Stance Set 2
• 1st Brown - Form 4 (First Half) - Two Man Set
• 1st Black - Form 4 Complete

 

[CB2379]

That is interesting. I too have visited some Kenpo School websites and found Long 4 taught at a level other than Black I. I suppose, like most things, the school instructors decide where certain forms and techniques are taught. There really doesn't seem to be alot of organization between different Kenpo schools in the manner in which forms and techniques are taught.

For example, at my school, Stance Set #1 is the first form students work at white belt and it is considered the very basic, foundation set. However, at other schools, I notice that this set is taught at Purple Belt.

Just to serve for some information, here are the forms and sets taught at my school in order in which I was taught or will learn them:

WHITE TO YELLOW: Stance Set #1, Short Form #1
YELLLOW TO ORANGE: Long Form #1
ORANGE TO PURPLE : Universal Set #1
PURPLE TO BLUE: Short Form #2, Kicking Set #1, Striking Set #1
BLUE TO GREEN: Coordination Set #1, Long Form #2, Finger Set #1
GREEN TO BROWN III: Short Form #3, Finger set #2
BROWN III TO BROWN II: Stance Set #2, Long Form #3
BROWN II TO BROWN I: Coordination Set #2
BROWN I TO BLACK I: Long Form #4, Personal Form

 

[kenpo tiger]

CB and I attend the same school, which is Tracy techs through Green and then we learn EPAK from Brown III onward.

My question is: why is Long 4 broken into two parts, as shown in two of the posts upthread; and where is the delineation made?

I can understand why it is taught earlier in some schools, since it's a difficult form in which to master the subtleties.

By the by, we learn Two Man Set after Long Five (between Black I and Black II.)

 

[michaeledward]

Long 4, at our studio is broken into to parts because it is 'Long'. We break right after Snaking Talons ... at a point we call, 'The Half-Way Horse'.

As to why ... <shrugg> ... don't know, still a student.

 

[TwistofFat]

Just my two cents...

It seems schools that teach Form 4 as a 1st Brown/1st BB requirement are schools that do not focus on the extentions. With 154 techniques and at least 7 Forms (plus Two Man, kicking, finger, et al), plus many have added grapling, stick work, boxing...no wonder BB takes so long. This is not an endorsement of either approach, just what I have noticed travelling around.

With good instruction, we all end up in the same place (generally).

Regards - Glenn.

 

[KenpoDave]

In Tracy's, Long #4 is taught in 3rd brown because all of the techniques contained in the form are taught in our green belt curriculum. It is the same with most of the numbered forms from Long #3 forward. We learn the techniques in one belt, then put them into the form in the next.

 

[kenpo tiger]

Long 4, at our studio is broken into to parts because it is 'Long'. We break right after Snaking Talons ... at a point we call, 'The Half-Way Horse'.

As to why ... <shrugg> ... don't know, still a student.

That's interesting to know. I originally thought that that was the case, but I asked my instructor about it anyway and he said: "half of Long IV is the right side of Long IV, originally known as Short IV, but I'm pretty sure it's not widely taught that way these days."

Hmm.

Thanks guys. It's always interesting to hear what each school does. Helps me as a teacher and a student.

 

[michaeledward]

Let me get out on a limb here ... but from what I have learned, performing just the right side of Long 4 (or Short 4) just doesn't seem correct. Part of what Long 4 teaches, as I understand it, is different entrances to each of the techniques. And these different entrances are there for a reason. Let me throw out a couple of examples .... to see if I can make myself understood.

Example 1

In the technique 'Gathering Clouds', the first time through the technique requires quick timing because the left foot has just a short distance to move (from the foward bow in Flashing Wings to the Horse Stance in the first strike of Gathering clouds. ...

where as the second pass on the technique the timing is not as quick, because the right foot has a longer distance to travel (from behind the left foot in the pivot, all the way out to the Horse stance).
​

Example 2

Looking at the technique 'Prance of the Tiger', we begin with the pushdrag reverse into a cat stance with a right upward block.

On the second side of 'Prance of the Tiger', the left upward block comes as a separate move ... to show that we must cock high to block(strike) low.

​

I hope these comments make sense ... I also hope that if I look back at them a year from now, I don't have to give myself a dope-slap.

There is a lot of meat in Form 4. And while I don't think I understand it yet, I am getting to understand certain parts of the form (Thank You Mr. Planas - and Mr. Hogan).

 

[Blindside]

That's interesting to know. I originally thought that that was the case, but I asked my instructor about it anyway and he said: "half of Long IV is the right side of Long IV, originally known as Short IV, but I'm pretty sure it's not widely taught that way these days."

Being an unofficial form, I'm sure there are alot of versions out there. However, the version of Short 4 that I learned, and the the two versions I have seen being performed by others, the form is one side of each technique pair, done in alternating sequence, left, right, left, right, (except for where it doesn't.)

Lamont

 

[kenpo tiger]

Let me get out on a limb here ... but from what I have learned, performing just the right side of Long 4 (or Short 4) just doesn't seem correct. Part of what Long 4 teaches, as I understand it, is different entrances to each of the techniques. And these different entrances are there for a reason. Let me throw out a couple of examples .... to see if I can make myself understood.





Example 1

In the technique 'Gathering Clouds', the first time through the technique requires quick timing because the left foot has just a short distance to move (from the foward bow in Flashing Wings to the Horse Stance in the first strike of Gathering clouds. ...



where as the second pass on the technique the timing is not as quick, because the right foot has a longer distance to travel (from behind the left foot in the pivot, all the way out to the Horse stance).


​

Example 2

Looking at the technique 'Prance of the Tiger', we begin with the pushdrag reverse into a cat stance with a right upward block.



On the second side of 'Prance of the Tiger', the left upward block comes as a separate move ... to show that we must cock high to block(strike) low.



​

I hope these comments make sense ... I also hope that if I look back at them a year from now, I don't have to give myself a dope-slap.



There is a lot of meat in Form 4. And while I don't think I understand it yet, I am getting to understand certain parts of the form (Thank You Mr. Planas - and Mr. Hogan).

I concur.

We are not taught Short IV -- ever -- In my school. It is left up to each of us individually to tinker with the concept if we so choose.

 

[kenpo black belt]

In my system of kenpo it the katas go like this.

White to yellow- none

Yellow to orange- Short 1 and Long 1

Orange to Purple- Short 2 and Long 2

Purple to Blue- Short 3 and Long 3

Blue to Green- Book set (Panther set)

Green to 3rd Brown- Mass Attack and Long 4

3rd Brown to 2nd Brown- Tiger & Crane and Darkroom Staff

2nd Brown to 1st Brown- Skylight staff and Two person Black Belt set A

1st Brown to Black- Two person Black Belt set B and Sword set #1 and Long 5.

 

[parkerkarate]

In my system of kenpo it the katas go like this.

White to yellow- none

Yellow to orange- Short 1 and Long 1

Orange to Purple- Short 2 and Long 2

Purple to Blue- Short 3 and Long 3

Blue to Green- Book set (Panther set)

Green to 3rd Brown- Mass Attack and Long 4

3rd Brown to 2nd Brown- Tiger & Crane and Darkroom Staff

2nd Brown to 1st Brown- Skylight staff and Two person Black Belt set A

1st Brown to Black- Two person Black Belt set B and Sword set #1 and Long 5.

Which system is this?

 

[kenpo black belt]

I am a student at Elite Defensive Tactics. We learn Traditional Tracy's Kenpo Karate.

 

[parkerkarate]

I am a student at Elite Defensive Tactics. We learn Traditional Tracy's Kenpo Karate.

O Ok

 

[kenpochad]

long 4 was green belt

 

[kenpo tiger]

Just my two cents...

It seems schools that teach Form 4 as a 1st Brown/1st BB requirement are schools that do not focus on the extentions. With 154 techniques and at least 7 Forms (plus Two Man, kicking, finger, et al), plus many have added grapling, stick work, boxing...no wonder BB takes so long. This is not an endorsement of either approach, just what I have noticed travelling around.

With good instruction, we all end up in the same place (generally).

Regards - Glenn.

You are assuming that 154 techs is the max, along with 7 forms. We learn 170 techs before testing for Black I, as well as 16 forms and sets. Those 170 techs include extensions. As I said upthread, we learn Tracy techs through green, then EPAK.

Learning Long IV at Brown I was actually much easier because I had most of the techs in it.

I learn something new every time I do each form and set because subtleties abound.

Been in schools where it was quick and easy to make Black belt. My kenpo black belt means so much to me because of the long hours spent working the material, getting bones broken sparring, being hit in the nose too many times, sweating like an animal, doing techniques in my hotel room at 3 am (no, security wasn't called -- we were in Las Vegas...) and being disappointed with myself because my 52 year old body can't move like a 20-somethings can. [sorry for the thread gank] Each of us does kenpo in our own special way, and I think that was Mr. Parker's point.

 

[bayonet]

You are assuming that 154 techs is the max, along with 7 forms. We learn 170 techs before testing for Black I, as well as 16 forms and sets. Those 170 techs include extensions. As I said upthread, we learn Tracy techs through green, then EPAK.

Learning Long IV at Brown I was actually much easier because I had most of the techs in it.

I learn something new every time I do each form and set because subtleties abound.

Been in schools where it was quick and easy to make Black belt. My kenpo black belt means so much to me because of the long hours spent working the material, getting bones broken sparring, being hit in the nose too many times, sweating like an animal, doing techniques in my hotel room at 3 am (no, security wasn't called -- we were in Las Vegas...) and being disappointed with myself because my 52 year old body can't move like a 20-somethings can. [sorry for the thread gank] Each of us does kenpo in our own special way, and I think that was Mr. Parker's point.

You the man! 52 and still bangin' I hope 19 years from now I can too...Lord willing. But the fact that you are getting bones broken during sparring... I know that it happens but CONTROL should be every Sifu's first rule of thumb...keep rocking Kenpo Tiger...Van Halen may need a new lead singer soon!!!

 

[kenpo tiger]

You the man! 52 and still bangin' I hope 19 years from now I can too...Lord willing. But the fact that you are getting bones broken during sparring... I know that it happens but CONTROL should be every Sifu's first rule of thumb...keep rocking Kenpo Tiger...Van Halen may need a new lead singer soon!!!

Thanks for the implied compliment, Bayonet, but I the WOMAN.

My master instructor does exert a great deal of control over our sparring situation. Broken bones can happen at any point in one's training -- some of mine are as a result of having techniques done on me and my not getting out of the way. My fault, not Sifu's.

And, I hope David Lee Roth returns to Van Halen.