Long 2 finger pokes

[Kenpo_man]

In Long 2, there is a section where you check kick and do an overhand punch with the other hand. You continue to step forward and do an upward block with the other hand. You poke over the block then do two more pokes. It's the only part like it so that explanation, though vague, should suffice. What's going on with the pokes. Every time I show somebody they laugh and ask what I'm supposed to be doing with the pokes. I could tell them that I'm blocking a punch and poking in the eyes three times but that doesn't seem quite right for some reason. Anyone have a better interpretation???

 

[MisterMike]

It does not really have any "technique" value, but then the 1's and the 2's forms were really more for practicing basics.

Generally, the 2 finger pokes are for the eyes, but more importantly one of the things the form is showing you is "snapping" and "thrusting" with the 2-finger pokes.

Theres a lot more to it than that once you start digging into the forms.

 

[RichK]

You are correct about that, but most I see just do the finger pokes side by side. You in essence do what Huk says "thread the needle". You are shooting your finger pokes (let's use the left finger poke) right over your right wrist behind the back of the right hand and then roll the right hand under and around the left hand to do the same thing. You are "threading the needle" and using your wrist/back of hand as a type of tracking to the eyes. HTH

 

[MisterMike]

Yes, kinda sorta like the tracking facing 6:00 and 12:00 doing the claw/back-knuckles...

 

[Ray]

I was originally told that the block was a forearm to the jaw, first poke goes to throat, and the other two pokes go to the eyes. I guess it's all a matter of how you see it, the block could be a block, as already mentioned.

 

[kevin kilroe]

If you want good information on long 2, I suggest you purchase Lee Wedlake's book, "Kenpo 201", which covers in depth short and long 1 and short and long 2, which are known as the basics and exercise forms. You can get it on his website, www.lwkarate.com.

 

[Kenpobuff]

As others have explained. I was taught that you execute the Upward Forearm Check under the chin immediately followed by the opposite hand Vertical Finger Eye Poke over your forearm. Then the check comes down and you deliver two more Vertical Eye Pokes with each hand. Vertical so as to use the opponent's nose as a guide into the eyes.

That's how I learned it. However, I haven't seen all the variations yet but I have seen some crazy versions at tournaments.

Steve

 

[Thesemindz]

At our school this technique is taught as a defense against a side bearhug, one arm pinned. The technique is called "Pressing the Bear," and is not taught as a specific self defense technique outside the form. Form 2 contains several techniques and parts of techniques which either never made it into the codified system of American Kenpo self defense techniques, or which influenced or evolved into techniques which are taught as part of the system. Attacking the Wall, and Pressing the Bear are two such examples. Other similar examples are the downward block to hook punch sequence and the moves immediately following, the inside downward block to upppercut punch section, and the advancing push down checks, sometimes reffered to as, "dragon walking." Looking at your other forms should lead you towards other similar situations, especially if you practice some of the chinese sets such as leopard, tiger, and crane.


-Rob

 

[Michael Billings]

... and if you get really creative:

1. Left Thrusting Sweep Kick with the Hanging Punch (I have heard it called an Overhand Downward Forknuckle strike; a bear paw; or seen it done in many lineages as an Overhead Punch) to the bridge of the nose.
2. As you step forward into the right neutral bow, immediatly execute a right uppercut to the abdomen, continuing the line of motion into an uppercut strike to the chin, and as you settle execute from the point of origin, a right upward forarm strike to the chin or edge of the mandible.
3. Leaving the forarm strike in place (similar to your right arm position in Lone Kimono, with the palm of the hand facing the opponent), utilize your right wrist as a gauge and thread the first left vertical finger eye strike to the opponent's right eye.
4. Using the left eye strike as a gauge, track along the left wrist with your right hand (palms facing in) to the opponent's left eye, then repeat the motion with your left. The hand retracts until the fingers are parallel to the wrist at the base of the thumb.

Whew! and that was from memory.

Now what I have from the 1990 manuals looks like this

Set 9:

(a) Execute a left front crossover to 1:30 as you execute a left overhead punch (hanging punch) to your opponent's nose. During this action your right hand is on your right hip.

(b) Without any loss of motion step out into a right neutral bow toward 1:30 while executing what appears to be a right upward block. In actual application the move is dually used by first having the fist (traveling in a uppercut fashion) strike to the underside of your opponent's chin. As the same action continues its course, your right forearm is used to again strike under the chin. Have your left hand cock (fist clenched, palm up) on your left hip.

(c) Follow up with a left two-finger eye poke to your opponent's right eye, paralleling the returning motion of your right arm. Retract your left strike as you execute a right two-finger eye poke to your opponent's left eye (Your left hand stops near your right elbow). Again shoot a left two-eye poke to your opponent's right eye, which parallels the returning motion of your right arm. (Have your left hand stop near your right elbow).

... and what it teaches

LONG FORM #2

TEACHES:

1. How to move up and down an "X" pattern.

2. How to block and counter:

a. Immediate strike after block - same hand.

b. Immediate strike after block - opposite hand.

c. Simultaneous block with strike.

d. Immediate strike after 2 simultaneous blocks.
​

3. How to turn a defense into an offense.

4. How to use body momentum as a source of power while punching or kicking.

5. Where linear movements end, circular movements begin, and where circular movements end linear movements begin.

6. How to step through with the action:

a. When kicking

b. When punching

c. When striking

d. When blocking
​

7. How to strike and kick simultaneously in the same direction with the same hand and
foot.

8. How to strike and kick simultaneously in the same direction with the opposite hand and foot.

9. How to strike and kick simultaneously in opposite directions with the same hand
and foot.

10. How to strike and kick simultaneously in opposite directions with the opposite
hand and foot.

11. Organized Retrograde.

12. How to use a variety of Natural Weapons in a variety of angles within the
Outer Rim.

13. Continuous Weapons.

14. Continuity of Motion:

a. Stationary

b. In Motion.
​

15. Basic Ingredients of Motion Analysis:

a. Direction
​

1) Front

2) Front Angle

3) Right Side

4) Left Side

5) Rear

6) Rear Angle
​

b. Method:
​

1) Linear

2) Circular
​

c. Paths:
​

1) Horizontal

2) Vertical

3) Diagonal
​

d. Dimension:
​

1) Height

2) Width

3) Depth
​

e. Angle - Degree of Arc
​

17. How to block below the waist, using the hand, while advancing or retreating.

18. How to jam - offensively.

19. Economy of Motion:

a. Stationary

b. In Motion
​

20. Offensive moves during transition.

21. Defensive moves during transition.

22. Simultaneous defense with offense:

a. Same Direction

b. Opposite Direction
​

23. Striking while checking.

24. Double Factor

And there is another section with "What Long Form Two "Contains".

You gotta love Kenpo ... at least I do. Mr. Parker's mind and how it analyzed and organized movement was facinating.

-Michael

 

[Doc]

It does not really have any "technique" value, but then the 1's and the 2's forms were really more for practicing basics.

So what you're saying is YOU don't know the applications in the first forms. Don't assume everyone has you level of understanding, or lack thereof. There are many here who might feel different.

Generally, the 2 finger pokes are for the eyes, but more importantly one of the things the form is showing you is "snapping" and "thrusting" with the 2-finger pokes.

Unfortunately, in motion Kenpo-Karate you're correct.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

You are correct about that, but most I see just do the finger pokes side by side. You in essence do what Huk says "thread the needle". You are shooting your finger pokes (let's use the left finger poke) right over your right wrist behind the back of the right hand and then roll the right hand under and around the left hand to do the same thing. You are "threading the needle" and using your wrist/back of hand as a type of tracking to the eyes. HTH

Welcome to Martilal Talk RichK :wavey: I like that threading the needle explanation for this form. I've understood that analogy for the beginning part of Long 4, but had not heard it used for Long 2. Thanks for sharing.

 

[Doc]

Welcome to Martilal Talk RichK :wavey: I like that threading the needle explanation for this form. I've understood that analogy for the beginning part of Long 4, but had not heard it used for Long 2. Thanks for sharing.

Dam you woke her up. We're in for it now. Ok for the record the way I was taught they were not "eye pokes" but "Eagles Claw" strikes and seizes with the web of the hand. So there.

 

[mj-hi-yah]

Dam you woke her up. We're in for it now. Ok for the record the way I was taught they were not "eye pokes" but "Eagles Claw" strikes and seizes with the web of the hand. So there.

Hey-Ya! I haven't even asked one question yet ... OK since the dam's been cracked, one question (there could be so many more ), what are you seizing?

 

[Seabrook]

Dam you woke her up. We're in for it now. Ok for the record the way I was taught they were not "eye pokes" but "Eagles Claw" strikes and seizes with the web of the hand. So there.

Oh geez, why haven't I seen that version? Eagle claw strikes are just outright nasty...gotta love them.

Thanks Doc.

Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[True2Kenpo]

Fellow Martial Artists,

I have been interested in this series of moves in Long 2 for some time as well.

I teach the version RichK explained and described as "...thread the needle" which then can be referenced to "Darting Leaves" in Form Four as I believe mj-hi-yah was referencing to as well.

I also like to teach the similarities between the triple backknuckle earlier in the form and the use of circular motion when compared to the linear finger thrusts.

A second explanation I learned was from Mr. Tatum during a question/ answer session in Baltimore, Maryland some time ago.

My question was, "Why do we strike the eyes three times in a row? I had always heard never hit the same target twice in a row." (and there are exceptions to the rule of course)

He explained that the opponent would read the first two thrusts and parry them down and because of the timing we use in Long 2 the third finger thrust would be the one to hit because the opponent's hands would be crossed up.

I am not really sure I can explain fully in words... but in one of the next OTM's maybe I can show it real quick. It made sense, just as the threading concept.

As before... there are many ways to move and if the why's are there why discard the information!

Great thread!

By the way, has anyone heard a name for that offensive technique in Long 2... I refer to it as "Dropping the Mace" just to mean something to my students.

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer

 

[Kenpo_man]

I didn't expect the variety of explanations. Thanks.

 

[Doc]

My question was, "Why do we strike the eyes three times in a row?

He explained that the opponent would read the first two thrusts and parry them down and because of the timing we use in Long 2 the third finger thrust would be the one to hit because the opponent's hands would be crossed up.

?

 

[Thesemindz]

By the way, has anyone heard a name for that offensive technique in Long 2... I refer to it as "Dropping the Mace" just to mean something to my students.

Respectfully,
Joshua Ryer

Which offensive technique? Are you referring to the movements after the six hands/seven swords/etc movement? Essentially the second series in the form? If you are, I've always heard that reffered to as "attacking the wall", although I knew some Kung Fu schools who taught the same technique as "striking the meteor."


-Rob

 

[MisterMike]

So what you're saying is YOU don't know the applications in the first forms. Don't assume everyone has you level of understanding, or lack thereof. There are many here who might feel different.

Unfortunately, in motion Kenpo-Karate you're correct.

No, what I was saying is the "Sets" in Long Form 2 were not meant to be run as stand-alone techniques (exactly as they are in the form).

If so, please explain to us all how the sets to 4:30 and 7:30 (down block/back-knuckle, horizontal punch, horiz. punch/front kick, vertical punch) would be run - exactly as it appears in the form, on a person and still follow rules of checks, covers, etc. That is just one. I wont even bother with the silliness of running the second set, (vert. block/horiz. punch, horiz. punch, horiz. punch, vert. punch/side kick) but if you'd like to stand there and do that in a fight, by all means.

They ARE NOT techniques. They are individual studies of motion, which if you care to look, are built on in later forms in the exact same location (4:30/7:30) Broken Rod, maybe????

 

[Doc]

No, what I was saying is the "Sets" in Long Form 2 were not meant to be run as stand-alone techniques (exactly as they are in the form).

If so, please explain to us all how the sets to 4:30 and 7:30 (down block/back-knuckle, horizontal punch, horiz. punch/front kick, vertical punch) would be run - exactly as it appears in the form, on a person and still follow rules of checks, covers, etc. That is just one. I wont even bother with the silliness of running the second set, (vert. block/horiz. punch, horiz. punch, horiz. punch, vert. punch/side kick) but if you'd like to stand there and do that in a fight, by all means.

They ARE NOT techniques. They are individual studies of motion, which if you care to look, are built on in later forms in the exact same location (4:30/7:30) Broken Rod, maybe????

OK let me address that another way. Your understanding of its applications may be different from others. That being said, I agree with you in part about segments of forms not being techniques, and should not be strung together. However, I personally would shy away from calling something "silly" unless I considered my knowledge of the subject "complete" and "all-knowing." Insert "mind - parachute" analogy here.