Lawmaker kneejerking again?

Discussion in 'The Study' started by granfire, Apr 12, 2012.

  1. granfire

    granfire Sr. Grandmaster

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    A couple of month ago a mother and stepmother made a little girl run around the yard for hours as punishment for lying.
    A short while later the child died.

    The women are being tried for capital and felony murder.


    Now:
    Lawmakers are pushing for laws that require everybody to report suspected child abuse AND protect them from legal repercussions.

    Is that just me or does somebody else see a problem there - and the potential for abuse of the law?
     
  2. Sukerkin

    Sukerkin Have the courage to speak softly

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    Yep, hasty lawmaking always creates pain for everyone else in the long run.

    Malicious reporting of actions that never took place is already a burden on the social and police services as it is (over here in Britain). The sad thing is that the real abuse hardly ever gets reported because it is done in secret and that is the problem that no amount of law-making will ever prevent.
     
  3. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Grandmaster

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    Its sad they need a law for that you would think if anyone saw child abuse thet would call. Now if the law is a way for givibg whistle blowers immunity then i dont see a problem with that
     
  4. granfire

    granfire Sr. Grandmaster

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    You don't?

    I see a huge problem, as Suke suggested, in malicious accusations and the culprit getting off scot free.

    I mean, what are you going to do to people who don't report it? They say they didn't know, think nothing of it. It's not like the culprits will burn a child in Walmart parking lots!
    On the other hand we already have parents not wanting to correct a child in public from fear of getting reported...
     
  5. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Grandmaster

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    If the lawmakers were smart they would take fraudulent complaints for revenge or harassment reason and not exempt them. There should be some type of immunity for honest people that are making a real complaint.
    I disagree with the part about making people report crimes but i like the protection it provides to honest peopke that really are concerned but may be qfraid to report something for fear of civil suit.
     
  6. granfire

    granfire Sr. Grandmaster

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    you mentioned lawmakers and smart in one sentence....

    Sadly those hasty kneejerk laws seldom have smart wording.
     
  7. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Staff Member

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    Accuse your neighbor.
    Enjoy as CPS takes their kids away and they go bankrupt fighting the charges, lose their house and jobs and never recover from the smear on their rep.
    Giggle manically as the kids are bounced from 1 'protective' foster home to another, separated, and subjected to the 'wonders' of -that- system.
    React with suitable false outrage when the molestation charge is made public.
    Demand 'someone do something' having forgotten that is how things started.

    lather, rinse, repeat.
     
  8. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    Extremes are seldom wise, for or against something. People should not have to be afraid to report suspected abuse of children. I think most states already have mandatory reporting for some classes of people, teachers and emergency room personnel for example. And there are often sanctions for not reporting if you are in a class that is required to report.

    But surely you don't think the example you gave is a good one for government to stay out of family affairs, do you? Forced to run for hours? What kind of lie, or series of lies deserves that, or will be corrected by that? With my kids I never thought twice about spanking them when they were very young, or taking some other action. But it was quick and tied to both the offense and the time of the offense, then forgotten (at least by me).

    My kids have commented they think I did right by them.
     
  9. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Staff Member

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    "require people to report"

    What if people don't? Fine them? Put them in crowded prisons?

    "suspected child abuse"

    Define 'abuse'. I saw a mom give her kid a slap on the *** in a store. Do I call 911 on that? I could give dozens of 'is this abuse' examples. We can say 'kid running for hours', but honestly, if I looked out the window and saw a kid running I'd assume he was playing. If I looked out the window an hour later and saw him still running, I'd still think playing.
    Unless I sat there and watched carefully I wouldn't know what was going on.

    Do I get punished for not being the 'local kid monitor'?

    See, that's the problem with the 'feel good' laws. Too many passed in a hurry without real thinking behind them.


    While I'm all in favor of real protections for kids there's just too much room for abuse in 'mandatory report' IMO.
     
  10. granfire

    granfire Sr. Grandmaster

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    you forgot the forever tarnished reputation of the parents. After all, whee there is smoke, there must be fire!
     
  11. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    "

    I think I have heard where teachers may be suspended or fired. I am not sure. I don't recall ever hearing of teachers being fined or put in jail.

    "

    It probably isn't going to legally be child abuse until so declared by a court of a government agency that is legally authorized to make such a declaration. Not only does it place a great onus on the person so accused, but as you point out below, who is going to define child abuse?

    "

    I wonder if a child would run for hours without loud complaint. But if so, then you might not suppose it to have been child abuse. Too bad for the child. Would you be punished? I don't know. Depends on the laws of the jurisdiction where the incident occurred. Are you in a class that is legally required to report suspected abuse? Or whether or not you could use an example like yours above to show no recognition on your part, therefore, no offense seen.

    Can't disagree with the above, except for the "room for abuse". I can knowingly make a false report against you saying I saw you commit a real robbery. When(/if) I am found out, I can and should be reported. Beyond that, we have social service agencies charged with determining if there was child abuse or not. Do we have any laws sanctioning them if they don't do their jobs? I have never heard of any. Could that be something to be fixed as well?

    And just so we are clear, I pointed out I don't agree with extremes on either side of the coin. I don't want the only proof for child abuse to be the body of a dead child, nor do I want misguided or grudge reports of abuse to ruin peoples lives. I hope you have a solution sir?
     
  12. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Staff Member

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    Page 1 - child abuse cited.

    Page 30 - parents cleared.

    Hmm....




    No, I don't have a solution. Other than enforce existing laws (we have plenty, more than any other country in fact), and people should be better. I agree with you, I don't want more dead kids, but bad laws won't fix that, and we have too many of those as it is.
     
  13. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    Then I guess we agree more than disagree sir.
     
  14. jks9199

    jks9199 Cause of War & Destroyer of Civilization Staff Member

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    Limited in how in depth I can go due to technology. I'll try to follow up later.

    Mandatory reporters generally include public safety personnel, teachers, and medical personnel. In other words, people in a position to see, recognize, and evaluate possible abuse. They generally have training in doing this. Failure to report generally exposes them to both professional sanctions like license suspension or termination and criminal liability.

    Sent from my Ally using Tapatalk
     
  15. Bob Hubbard

    Bob Hubbard Staff Member

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    Personally, I think if a teacher, doctor, or other such people see clear signs of abuse they should report it and it should be investigated. It should also be true to our core believe of innocent until proven guilty. Those guilty should be punished.

    Those making honest errors shouldn't be punished, but those who falsify should.

    But, 'abuse' needs to be clearly defined. I know of a case in NY where a child was removed from his mothers custody and given to his father.
    Let me clarify.
    The mother was educated and gainfully employed.
    The father a drunk with a record, without employment.
    The judge didn't like the womans religion.

    Took 4 years and over a hundred thousand dollars in legal expenses for her to regain custody and she is still prevented from practicing her religion in her own home under threat of again losing custody.

    The religion? SubGenius.
    Her crime? wearing a fishnet stocking and a goats head at a gathering.
    No abuse was ever demonstrated.

    http://www.modemac.com/cgi-bin/wiki.pl/Reverend_Magdalen

    If it's a clear cut case of abuse, nail em. But there has to be some checks and balances in the system to prevent malicious BS like that. Sadly, there really aren't, and many of the 'big cities' are over burdened as it is. So costs will go up, way up, to staff and train staff correctly to fix things.
     
  16. granfire

    granfire Sr. Grandmaster

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    we are already in a climate where 3rd persons think they know more than anybody else, or that others do it all wrong since they don't do it like they do.

    And that is in a field (like animal keeping) where problems are usually few and far between and of minimal consequences, unlike child safety.
    Worrisome development.
     

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