KRAV MAGA TRAINING • That's why the Street is different from your Dojo

[ballen0351]

as a concept not so much application

We do similar drills more to teach people not to panic when your being attacked from all sides. Ive seen people panic and freeze up and stop fighting all together. I don't expect them to win since staying in the middle would be a bad idea but I don't want them to freeze. I failed a recruit once because of a drill like that no matter how many times we did it she would loose her mind and freeze up and not fight back. She was fine one on one or even two on one but anymore then that she would just freeze up.

 

[Transk53]

Traffic cones also hurt. See someone hurl one, duck!

 

[punisher73]

Some peeves of mine reading through this thread.
1) Failure to define terms: Much like the dreaded "streetfighter" label, what do you (general usage, not specific person/s) mean by "situational awareness"? It is a nebulous concept that includes too many things to list often times and would be better served by breaking it down to what is actually meant. For example, "environmental awareness" part of the situation, but we are defining now specifically where the conflict will take place, crowded bar or open parking lot, etc. It's part of the "situation", but is more specific as to what is needed.

2) Concepts that don't work for an "average person" in a real situation but are taught as if they should be. In this case, the use of "peripheral vision". Many dojos/schools teach how to use this almost magical 180 degrees of vision that we all have at our disposal in stress free to moderately stressful situations. Problem is we have two different types of vision. Peripheral and Fovial. When adrenaline hits and effects the body, peripheral shuts down and we are only left with fovial, or direct focus vision. Most often this is what is called "tunnel vision". So unless, you are able to spend LOTS of hours in high stress innoculation scenarios, the average person is better off to learn how to scan and look for threats. If you have any type of firearm training, you will see that they train officers to step off the line and move their whole body around to scan for other threats. This recognizes that a quick look or peak using peripheral vision is not going to work and you have to look at what you want to see.

 

[K-man]

as a concept not so much application

One comment here. As I have mentioned previously, we often do circle training but I prefer the Systema approach which is to keep moving hitting opponents and moving on. The Krav approach as seen in this video is to engage and destroy, then move on. The problem is that another attacker has the opportunity to move in and grab you. It works as an exercise in getting you used to a chaotic situation with multiple attackers but to my mind is not the best way to engage multiple opponents.

I had a quick look to see if I could find a video but no luck.

 

[K-man]

Some peeves of mine reading through this thread.
1) Failure to define terms: Much like the dreaded "streetfighter" label, what do you (general usage, not specific person/s) mean by "situational awareness"? It is a nebulous concept that includes too many things to list often times and would be better served by breaking it down to what is actually meant. For example, "environmental awareness" part of the situation, but we are defining now specifically where the conflict will take place, crowded bar or open parking lot, etc. It's part of the "situation", but is more specific as to what is needed.

2) Concepts that don't work for an "average person" in a real situation but are taught as if they should be. In this case, the use of "peripheral vision". Many dojos/schools teach how to use this almost magical 180 degrees of vision that we all have at our disposal in stress free to moderately stressful situations. Problem is we have two different types of vision. Peripheral and Fovial. When adrenaline hits and effects the body, peripheral shuts down and we are only left with fovial, or direct focus vision. Most often this is what is called "tunnel vision". So unless, you are able to spend LOTS of hours in high stress innoculation scenarios, the average person is better off to learn how to scan and look for threats. If you have any type of firearm training, you will see that they train officers to step off the line and move their whole body around to scan for other threats. This recognizes that a quick look or peak using peripheral vision is not going to work and you have to look at what you want to see.

Failure to define terms is always a problem.

Depending on the reason for your training 'situational awareness' is far more important for someone working security, military or police than for someone training for the ring. It is also a concept that we continually stress during training for SD and, yes, it covers a huge range of understanding.

Adrenal dump causes tunnel vision but the adrenalin is metabolised pretty rapidly. It really is a matter of surviving those first few seconds until the situation subsides. I don't think that there is any magical 180 degree vision. It is, as you say constant movement and scanning that gives you that awareness. However, as Drop Bear said, when you are engaged one on one it is not easy to scan or even look for other threats. All you can do is be aware that other threats may be present and look out for them as best you can.

 

[Takai]

a car has mirrors to help with your situational awareness.

without those mirrors you still have this blind spot that you are not taking in to account.

and this is without the idea that being punched in the face can be distracting

So it isn't "situational awareness" to be aware of issues in your surrounding and use the tools (and/or training) at your disposal to mediate them? I am guessing that someone "taught" you how to drive a car. And you probably could't/didn't use those mirrors properly all on your own. I know I had to be taught. 10 years ago I went to a driving school to get my CDL. I had been driving for years and guess what..I learned to how a "professional" uses their mirrors. It really wasn't that hard but it took sometime to make in an ingrained skill.

Saying that something can't be done in the face of people that are telling you they do it, did it and train people to do it seems to me to be a bit....arrogant.

 

[Takai]

Failure to define terms is always a problem.

Yes!

 

[drop bear]

Some peeves of mine reading through this thread.
1) Failure to define terms: Much like the dreaded "streetfighter" label, what do you (general usage, not specific person/s) mean by "situational awareness"? It is a nebulous concept that includes too many things to list often times and would be better served by breaking it down to what is actually meant. For example, "environmental awareness" part of the situation, but we are defining now specifically where the conflict will take place, crowded bar or open parking lot, etc. It's part of the "situation", but is more specific as to what is needed.

2) Concepts that don't work for an "average person" in a real situation but are taught as if they should be. In this case, the use of "peripheral vision". Many dojos/schools teach how to use this almost magical 180 degrees of vision that we all have at our disposal in stress free to moderately stressful situations. Problem is we have two different types of vision. Peripheral and Fovial. When adrenaline hits and effects the body, peripheral shuts down and we are only left with fovial, or direct focus vision. Most often this is what is called "tunnel vision". So unless, you are able to spend LOTS of hours in high stress innoculation scenarios, the average person is better off to learn how to scan and look for threats. If you have any type of firearm training, you will see that they train officers to step off the line and move their whole body around to scan for other threats. This recognizes that a quick look or peak using peripheral vision is not going to work and you have to look at what you want to see.

i tend not to use the term situational awareness unless i am being specific.

and find it more useful to use terms like fight,move,pop your head up have a look.

i was thinking of a magic trick. As much situational awareness as we think we have. They still fool us.

 

[drop bear]

So it isn't "situational awareness" to be aware of issues in your surrounding and use the tools (and/or training) at your disposal to mediate them? I am guessing that someone "taught" you how to drive a car. And you probably could't/didn't use those mirrors properly all on your own. I know I had to be taught. 10 years ago I went to a driving school to get my CDL. I had been driving for years and guess what..I learned to how a "professional" uses their mirrors. It really wasn't that hard but it took sometime to make in an ingrained skill.

Saying that something can't be done in the face of people that are telling you they do it, did it and train people to do it seems to me to be a bit....arrogant.

my only personal investment in whether this works and to what extent is the amount of risk i personally face applying it.

so i get to have an opinion on this. I have done the training and get constantly assured everything works.

but they are not taking my punches for me if it doesn't.

there is no risk to the trainer if i get bashed.

 

[Dylan9d]

as a concept not so much application

This is what we used to do when i was in Krav, i felt like it was good for conditioning and stamina but other than that a useless drill.

I think teaching awareness the knee and shoulder tapping is way better, to learn to fight against multiple attacker the 3 or 4 vs 1 sparring is way better to learn it, especially in mind that you always need to keep 1 attacker between you and the others.

 

[tshadowchaser]

I like both ways of training but I also like putting everyone in a circle and saying "free for all" and letting them go at it. That way everyone might be a friend one moment and an enemy the next. Keeps your hed on a swivle and no you do not want to be on the ground in this one

 

[K-man]

This is what we used to do when i was in Krav, i felt like it was good for conditioning and stamina but other than that a useless drill.

I think teaching awareness the knee and shoulder tapping is way better, to learn to fight against multiple attacker the 3 or 4 vs 1 sparring is way better to learn it, especially in mind that you always need to keep 1 attacker between you and the others.

Keeping one attacker between you and another works great in theory. In practice, once you are grabbed, that goes out the door. I don't agree that it is a useless drill but I do agree that there may be better ways of training it.

 

[ballen0351]

That's why we have many different ways to train. To say this way is useless could be true if this was the only drill ever done. But as one part of many different drills it's got its place.

 

[Dylan9d]

Keeping one attacker between you and another works great in theory. In practice, once you are grabbed, that goes out the door. I don't agree that it is a useless drill but I do agree that there may be better ways of training it.

It isn't completely useless, it's a great way to build stamina. We used to do that to practice this in a different and more intense way, the person in the middle keeps punching that bag on a high pace, then he got different attacks from all sides etc. It was a nice way to show what was left from a technique when you are tired.

 

[K-man]

It isn't completely useless, it's a great way to build stamina. We used to do that to practice this in a different and more intense way, the person in the middle keeps punching that bag on a high pace, then he got different attacks from all sides etc. It was a nice way to show what was left from a technique when you are tired.

I didn't say it was useless. But it is not designed to be a stamina drill. It's an exercise in taking on multiple attackers. My arguement is that it takes too long to try to demolish attackers one by one. My strategy is from Systema where you use your body motion to attack several attackers at once, changing position so it is harder to be hit or grabbed.

 

[Dylan9d]

I didn't say it was useless. But it is not designed to be a stamina drill. It's an exercise in taking on multiple attackers. My arguement is that it takes too long to try to demolish attackers one by one. My strategy is from Systema where you use your body motion to attack several attackers at once, changing position so it is harder to be hit or grabbed.

You are right. I like Systema also from the right teachers that is.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I didn't say it was useless. But it is not designed to be a stamina drill. It's an exercise in taking on multiple attackers. My arguement is that it takes too long to try to demolish attackers one by one. My strategy is from Systema where you use your body motion to attack several attackers at once, changing position so it is harder to be hit or grabbed.

Which is an excellent approach. Move and get to the outside, have your opponents have to move and get in each others way while you engage with one is always a good way to go.

 

[drop bear]

Keeping one attacker between you and another works great in theory. In practice, once you are grabbed, that goes out the door. I don't agree that it is a useless drill but I do agree that there may be better ways of training it.

that is the basic result of two on one for us. Both guys smell blood and go straight in. And it is generally over pretty quickly.

just the wrong sort of guys to be training it.

 

[drop bear]

Which is an excellent approach. Move and get to the outside, have your opponents have to move and get in each others way while you engage with one is always a good way to go.

i used to play rugby. And that is the technique for getting past two people. Of course you also train the two people to keep you in the middle.

and they have the advantage because there is two of them.

but look sure. You can try it. It doesn't cost you all that much and you might get away with it. You would need to jink into the middle and hope one of them is drawn in. Then cut to the outside.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Multiple attackers are a real tough thing to deal with. It is not going to be pretty and personally I would rather stack the odds in my favor by utilizing a tool/weapon to deal with them.