And yet... quite a few of the seniors I was referring to are not from the ITF; quite a few are. I really think it has to do with experience and training, more than it does with organizational affiliation.
'Korean karate': candor and denial
- Thread starter exile
- Start date
And yet... quite a few of the seniors I was referring to are not from the ITF; quite a few are. I really think it has to do with experience and training, more than it does with organizational affiliation.
newGuy12
Master of Arts
This is so important! I can no longer speak with my GM who was there, back in the day of the Kwans! All of the Old GMs will pass away someday. Its important to get all of the information possible whenever they speak about it!
OP
- Thread Starter
- #23
This is completely plausible to me; my own sahbumnim, Allen Shirley, and his friend and associate, the late Gm. Darell Trudo; our own Kwan Jang, Master David Hughes, and many, many others, including many of our TKD friends on MT, have been wellsprings of information on the true background of the art. I wasn't really thinking of individuals so much in this context; I've actually had very little disagreement with most of the people who have solid records of achievement in the TKD world. It's not really individuals per se that I was thinking of...
Much more characteristic is the stack of books on TKD on my shelf, many of which, in the obligatory chapter, repeat the 'Three Kingdoms/Hwarang/Ancient TKD/High Kicks to Dismount An Attacker' mantra ad nauseum, ignoring what is by now a huge body of critical literature that systematically dismantles every component of this duplicitous sales pitch. And this includes some very recent books by authors who should certainly know better, who had every chance to see some of the major contributions in that critical literature on TKD history I just mentioned. In 1999, six years after Young's exhaustive study of Taekyon appeared in Journal of Asian Martial Arts, and two years after Dakin Burdicks crucial followup piece in the same journal, a major textbook of WTF-style sports TKD, Taekwondo: the State of the Art—it has nine altogether useless pages devoted to 'self-defense' out of nearly three hundred—spends its whole first chapter, on 'The History of Taekwondo, repeating Three Kingdoms military history as though any connection could be established between modern TKD and whatever the inhabitants of the Korea were doing 2000 years ago in their endless fighting on the peninsula, and full of empty handwaving along the lines of, `There is every reason to believe that tae kyon, or soo bahk, flourished during [the Koryo era, around the 10th c. AD]' (my emphasis). This, without a single line of supporting evidence, or citation, or reference to the many unnamed sources cited in the chapter that supposedly validate this kind of hokum. And this is far from the worst such 'History of Taekwondo' chapter in the books in my collection. The TKD sites on the web are still worse; I've given up counting the number of web pages claiming that TKD has a well-established two-millenia-old history on the peninsula, citing as evidence facts shown by Young, Burdick and Henning as far back as a decade and a half to have no connection whatever to TKD, or anything specifically Korean.
What's at issue isn't really the veracity of individuals (though there are, of course, many cases where individuals are happy to act as mouthpieces for this sort of historical scamming) so much as the duplicity of organizations and federations. The USA Taekwondo site I posted that link to is just one example, but it exemplifies the worst that's out there, and that's pretty bad, I think—and very, very widespread.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #25
If what you have to say involves a comparison between TKD and TSD, or something about the divergence between the TKD and TSD communities, or some technical relationship, I'm sure you'll find your query welcome, and will get a lot of useful responses.
JWLuiza
Black Belt
Saying Tang Soo Do is saying karate. They mean the same thing.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #28
JWL is of course correct; and that factthat TSD is one of the Korean translations/transliterations for kara teis an important pointer to what I'm getting at in this thread.
I'm not saying that TSD is the same as Okinawan or Japanese karate, first of all. I'm saying that the origin of the modern Korean striking arts in (Japanese) karate is at this point backed up by such a mass of historical evidence that those who bother to familiarize themselves with it can see, pretty much immediately, that there are no viable alternative sources. (There are plenty of people who don' do that, but who still have very strong opinions on the matter, but that's another story...) The point I'm getting at is that the modern striking KMAs are the Korean development of Japanese karate, just as Shotokan and Shudokan are Japanese developments of Okinawan karate. There's a world of difference between Shuri-te and Shotokan; but there's also no question that a line of historical development links them. That's all I'm talking about. TSD people do not deny the origins of their art in karate to nearly the same degree that TKD people do; if you want an example, look at the home page of the major US Korean-affiliated TKD organization here. This kind of charlatanry, with major implicit lies about the origin of TKD, seems to me to be unthinkable in TSD, and I'm curious as to why... that's my sole concern here.
JWLuiza
Black Belt
Actually Exile, I think the foot soldier in TSD is more educated now, but if you check the websites you see one of two flavors of history... (Sadly, hours gives the whole 2000 year history.... yuck)
1. Complete Propaganda
2. Propaganda and some varying degree of truth along side it, ranging from complete openess to vauge references to the Japanese occupation.
Oh and a 3rd option:
Tang Soo Do history starts with the GM of the organization
But overall, I think we just don't care that much. In fact, I WOULD lump my training into karate style training. I think SBD MDK practitioners are starting a transition to a non-karate or less-karate like training. I know my TSD is closer to Karate than Kung Fu or any other MA. But I guess I can shut up now since you and I pretty much agree on KMAs....
OP
- Thread Starter
- #30
Which is interesting in itself, eh?
So I've heard. I understand that there's a movement afoot in the SBD MDK to suppress the Pinans, as the Korean TKD directorate did, to its eternal discredit...
But wait, that's no reason to shut up!
JWLuiza
Black Belt
Not so much to supress the Pinans, but to focus more on the Chil Sun and Yuk Rho forms. I actually don't have much issue with this. Hwang Kee KJN and H.C. Hwang KJN have a vision of what they want their art to look like and are actively changing it. They have a reason behind their madness. The only problem I have is that the videos I've seen show kind of robotic standardization to their hyeong, but videos of H.C. Hwang KJN are just FANTASTIC. I would love to work with some of the more technically proficient SBD MDK members.
The Mi Guk Kwan has an even distribution of the Chil SUn, Yuk Rho, and Classic TSD hyung in their curriculum and use them to attend to different aspects of movement and training.
I guess so. Who else can I talk martial arts with on a Friday night?
OP
- Thread Starter
- #32
Can you say something about those two forms, JWLwhere they com from, that sort of thing?
I've no problem at all with people adding to their hyung syllabus (though my own feeling is that a few in depth is way better than a superficial two dozen or so); but it's the excision of traditional forms, particularly those which, like the Pinans, clearly show the O/J footprints of the technique set, that really bothers me.
Hey, what else are Friday nights for?! :drinky: :lol:
I think what happened was that martial arts stopped being rare and exotic. At first there really wasn't much of a frame of reference. People groped along as best they could and believed what they were told because it was all they knew. This fed into the nation-building and mythologizing urges of a lot of countries. Add in the well-documented effects of high-altitude cosmic radiation on obis - get on a plane in Tokyo with a brown belt, emerge at LAX with a seventh degree black one - and there's room for all sorts of strange ideas to take root.
As more people in the West took up martial arts they became more sophisticated consumers and learned how to judge rather than uncritically accept everything they were told as Revealed Wisdom(tm). When the scholars got a hold of it the jig was really up. Increased travel and better communications exposed the fairy tales, and documents made their way into more hands. A generation of anthropology, history and Asian studies grad students desperate for publications dug in. Most of all, access to information increased. It has become easier to go and see for oneself or to meet people from the culture in question in one's own country. It's harder to hide the contradictions and fabrications.
This isn't Korea bashing. You can see exactly the same thing almost anywhere you look. Let's take Silat just as a not at all random example. One teacher who lives a couple hundred miles from here claimed to be a master of a certain style. Nobody really questioned him until recently. Then the people back in Indonesia who have been practicing the system for quite a while said "His teacher? That was supposed to be my father. Dad never heard of the guy, and the styles look absolutely nothing alike."
Others claimed to be the only Keepers of the Flame of a certain system and had some very specific stories about which ethnic group it came from. Now that more people have gone to the area they came from and seen the style in context and practiced by lots of other people the original claims turn out to be, well, not true.
A member of the same group claims that when the concentration camp he was in was liberated from the Japanese the general in charge of the liberation was a certain well-known martial artist. He swore it up one side and down the other. Comes the research by a number of veteran's groups, and it turns out the "general" completely fabricated his military history. The stories that arise out of that must be false as well. Nobody would have known any better if it hadn't been for increased contact between the cultures and interchange between people with disparate interests that happen to intersect in significant places.
There was a great quote from a sci-fi book to the effect that "Bad communications deter theft. Good communications encourage theft. Perfect communications prevent theft." The same holds true for self-serving falsehoods. It doesn't mean people won't try. The ratio of clumsy liars in any human population has always been approximately one per mouth. It does mean that it's harder to succeed, and their continued credibility relies more heavily on getting peoples' egos thoroughly invested in the stories than on simple ignorance.
- and there's room for all sorts of strange ideas to take root.As more people in the West took up martial arts they became more sophisticated consumers and learned how to judge rather than uncritically accept everything they were told as Revealed Wisdom(tm). When the scholars got a hold of it the jig was really up. Increased travel and better communications exposed the fairy tales, and documents made their way into more hands. A generation of anthropology, history and Asian studies grad students desperate for publications dug in. Most of all, access to information increased. It has become easier to go and see for oneself or to meet people from the culture in question in one's own country. It's harder to hide the contradictions and fabrications.
This isn't Korea bashing. You can see exactly the same thing almost anywhere you look. Let's take Silat just as a not at all random example. One teacher who lives a couple hundred miles from here claimed to be a master of a certain style. Nobody really questioned him until recently. Then the people back in Indonesia who have been practicing the system for quite a while said "His teacher? That was supposed to be my father. Dad never heard of the guy, and the styles look absolutely nothing alike."
Others claimed to be the only Keepers of the Flame of a certain system and had some very specific stories about which ethnic group it came from. Now that more people have gone to the area they came from and seen the style in context and practiced by lots of other people the original claims turn out to be, well, not true.
A member of the same group claims that when the concentration camp he was in was liberated from the Japanese the general in charge of the liberation was a certain well-known martial artist. He swore it up one side and down the other. Comes the research by a number of veteran's groups, and it turns out the "general" completely fabricated his military history. The stories that arise out of that must be false as well. Nobody would have known any better if it hadn't been for increased contact between the cultures and interchange between people with disparate interests that happen to intersect in significant places.
There was a great quote from a sci-fi book to the effect that "Bad communications deter theft. Good communications encourage theft. Perfect communications prevent theft." The same holds true for self-serving falsehoods. It doesn't mean people won't try. The ratio of clumsy liars in any human population has always been approximately one per mouth. It does mean that it's harder to succeed, and their continued credibility relies more heavily on getting peoples' egos thoroughly invested in the stories than on simple ignorance.
OP
- Thread Starter
- #34
I think what happened was that martial arts stopped being rare and exotic. At first there really wasn't much of a frame of reference. People groped along as best they could and believed what they were told because it was all they knew. This fed into the nation-building and mythologizing urges of a lot of countries. Add in the well-documented effects of high-altitude cosmic radiation on obis - get on a plane in Tokyo with a brown belt, emerge at LAX with a seventh degree black one
As more people in the West took up martial arts they became more sophisticated consumers and learned how to judge rather than uncritically accept everything they were told as Revealed Wisdom(tm). When the scholars got a hold of it the jig was really up. Increased travel and better communications exposed the fairy tales, and documents made their way into more hands. A generation of anthropology, history and Asian studies grad students desperate for publications dug in. Most of all, access to information increased. It has become easier to go and see for oneself or to meet people from the culture in question in one's own country. It's harder to hide the contradictions and fabrications.
This isn't Korea bashing. You can see exactly the same thing almost anywhere you look. Let's take Silat just as a not at all random example. One teacher who lives a couple hundred miles from here claimed to be a master of a certain style. Nobody really questioned him until recently. Then the people back in Indonesia who have been practicing the system for quite a while said "His teacher? That was supposed to be my father. Dad never heard of the guy, and the styles look absolutely nothing alike."
Others claimed to be the only Keepers of the Flame of a certain system and had some very specific stories about which ethnic group it came from. Now that more people have gone to the area they came from and seen the style in context and practiced by lots of other people the original claims turn out to be, well, not true.
A member of the same group claims that when the concentration camp he was in was liberated from the Japanese the general in charge of the liberation was a certain well-known martial artist. He swore it up one side and down the other. Comes the research by a number of veteran's groups, and it turns out the "general" completely fabricated his military history. The stories that arise out of that must be false as well. Nobody would have known any better if it hadn't been for increased contact between the cultures and interchange between people with disparate interests that happen to intersect in significant places.
There was a great quote from a sci-fi book to the effect that "Bad communications deter theft. Good communications encourage theft. Perfect communications prevent theft." The same holds true for self-serving falsehoods. It doesn't mean people won't try. The ratio of clumsy liars in any human population has always been approximately one per mouth. It does mean that it's harder to succeed, and their continued credibility relies more heavily on getting peoples' egos thoroughly invested in the stories than on simple ignorance.
A lot of good points in this post, but the thing I've bolded is I think the absolutely crucial bit. I can't for the life of me figure out what drives that investment, but wherever it comes from, I think you're dead right...
Quote:
Originally Posted by JWLuiza
The Mi Guk Kwan has an even distribution of the Chil SUn, Yuk Rho, and Classic TSD hyung in their curriculum and use them to attend to different aspects of movement and training.
Being a Mi Guk Kwan member I understand fully the intent of having so many hyungs and techniques. It is one of the factors that makes Mi Guk Kwan a unique and living art, separating it from other Tang Soo Do kwans (I am not disparaging other Kwans, just speaking about the differences, I dont want people posting about how I put down every other org in the world ..)
In the Mi Guk Kwan we learn all the Classical/Traditional Hyung found in Tang Soo Do. We also practice the Chil Sung and Yuk Rho Hyungs. The idea is to build the Fire energy of hard external type forms, (bassai for example) water energy forms of soft internal type (nihanji) and the balance of both hard and soft energies (chil sung). As one trains in the Mi Guk Kwan the forms go from hard, to hard/soft, to soft. All belts, and dan ranks follow this model, even with the weapons, starting at knife for 1st dan, bo for 2nd, Korean sword for 3rd, Chinese broad sword for 4th, Chinese spear form for 5th, Tai Chi sword for 6th.
Now I agree, all in all tons of forms. And I also agree that it would be to much in a modern day to examine all these forms, pick them apart, and learn EVERY detail from every single move (But I have seen and know that you can learn all these hyungs and still perform them all masterfully regardless of number but they are separate issues)
The cool thing I believe is the ability of a Mi Guk Kwan stylist to pick different hyungs that resonate with them and work those hyungs personally. I love Nihanji (spelling might be a little off, you know, Romanization) and I also love Chil Sung. Now I might like Chil Sung Yuk Rho so I might spend years pulling that form apart and learning every application and it would effect my personal evolution as a martial artist. Now I am not the greatest with Wan Shu (characterized by the sparrow) I need to work on being lighter. So I train this form a lot, working on the other side of aspect I need to improve on. So while I might train forms I love a lot, and forms I need to work on a lot, I still know the other forms that come around, because my students might choose to pick them, for they might be better suited to their evolution
Now, you can not pick and choose the forms you learn, you have to learn them all. But yes, you can pick and choose the forms you decide you want to personal master beyond the normal scope. I believe this is great for the diverse amount of people that train in martial arts to have something they can evolve into and with.
For instance for me personally, I dont like bo (staff). I know the forms, but it is just not a weapon for me. I have students that love it. I love the Korean sword, so I gravitate to that. I am learning now the Chinese broad sword, and while it is kind of cool and I know it, it is not my favorite thing in the world. I dont like the single knife but love the double knife in our syllabus. This is not to say I dont find value in the forms that are not my favorite, just that they probably wont shape me as much as the forms I train with. And if you saw my Chinese broad sword form, while I do the characteristics and movements of the form correct, you can see some of my Korean sword popping through.
You can see different aspects in people training based on what hyungs/drills/other martial activities they gravitate to. I think thats pretty cool.:ubercool:
TANG SOO!!!
MTabone
Originally Posted by JWLuiza
The Mi Guk Kwan has an even distribution of the Chil SUn, Yuk Rho, and Classic TSD hyung in their curriculum and use them to attend to different aspects of movement and training.
Being a Mi Guk Kwan member I understand fully the intent of having so many hyungs and techniques. It is one of the factors that makes Mi Guk Kwan a unique and living art, separating it from other Tang Soo Do kwans (I am not disparaging other Kwans, just speaking about the differences, I dont want people posting about how I put down every other org in the world ..)
In the Mi Guk Kwan we learn all the Classical/Traditional Hyung found in Tang Soo Do. We also practice the Chil Sung and Yuk Rho Hyungs. The idea is to build the Fire energy of hard external type forms, (bassai for example) water energy forms of soft internal type (nihanji) and the balance of both hard and soft energies (chil sung). As one trains in the Mi Guk Kwan the forms go from hard, to hard/soft, to soft. All belts, and dan ranks follow this model, even with the weapons, starting at knife for 1st dan, bo for 2nd, Korean sword for 3rd, Chinese broad sword for 4th, Chinese spear form for 5th, Tai Chi sword for 6th.
Now I agree, all in all tons of forms. And I also agree that it would be to much in a modern day to examine all these forms, pick them apart, and learn EVERY detail from every single move (But I have seen and know that you can learn all these hyungs and still perform them all masterfully regardless of number but they are separate issues)
The cool thing I believe is the ability of a Mi Guk Kwan stylist to pick different hyungs that resonate with them and work those hyungs personally. I love Nihanji (spelling might be a little off, you know, Romanization) and I also love Chil Sung. Now I might like Chil Sung Yuk Rho so I might spend years pulling that form apart and learning every application and it would effect my personal evolution as a martial artist. Now I am not the greatest with Wan Shu (characterized by the sparrow) I need to work on being lighter. So I train this form a lot, working on the other side of aspect I need to improve on. So while I might train forms I love a lot, and forms I need to work on a lot, I still know the other forms that come around, because my students might choose to pick them, for they might be better suited to their evolution
Now, you can not pick and choose the forms you learn, you have to learn them all. But yes, you can pick and choose the forms you decide you want to personal master beyond the normal scope. I believe this is great for the diverse amount of people that train in martial arts to have something they can evolve into and with.
For instance for me personally, I dont like bo (staff). I know the forms, but it is just not a weapon for me. I have students that love it. I love the Korean sword, so I gravitate to that. I am learning now the Chinese broad sword, and while it is kind of cool and I know it, it is not my favorite thing in the world. I dont like the single knife but love the double knife in our syllabus. This is not to say I dont find value in the forms that are not my favorite, just that they probably wont shape me as much as the forms I train with. And if you saw my Chinese broad sword form, while I do the characteristics and movements of the form correct, you can see some of my Korean sword popping through.
You can see different aspects in people training based on what hyungs/drills/other martial activities they gravitate to. I think thats pretty cool.:ubercool:
TANG SOO!!!
MTabone
I think what happened was that martial arts stopped being rare and exotic. At first there really wasn't much of a frame of reference. People groped along as best they could and believed what they were told because it was all they knew. This fed into the nation-building and mythologizing urges of a lot of countries. Add in the well-documented effects of high-altitude cosmic radiation on obis - get on a plane in Tokyo with a brown belt, emerge at LAX with a seventh degree black one
As more people in the West took up martial arts they became more sophisticated consumers and learned how to judge rather than uncritically accept everything they were told as Revealed Wisdom(tm). When the scholars got a hold of it the jig was really up. Increased travel and better communications exposed the fairy tales, and documents made their way into more hands. A generation of anthropology, history and Asian studies grad students desperate for publications dug in. Most of all, access to information increased. It has become easier to go and see for oneself or to meet people from the culture in question in one's own country. It's harder to hide the contradictions and fabrications.
This isn't Korea bashing. You can see exactly the same thing almost anywhere you look. Let's take Silat just as a not at all random example. One teacher who lives a couple hundred miles from here claimed to be a master of a certain style. Nobody really questioned him until recently. Then the people back in Indonesia who have been practicing the system for quite a while said "His teacher? That was supposed to be my father. Dad never heard of the guy, and the styles look absolutely nothing alike."
Others claimed to be the only Keepers of the Flame of a certain system and had some very specific stories about which ethnic group it came from. Now that more people have gone to the area they came from and seen the style in context and practiced by lots of other people the original claims turn out to be, well, not true.
A member of the same group claims that when the concentration camp he was in was liberated from the Japanese the general in charge of the liberation was a certain well-known martial artist. He swore it up one side and down the other. Comes the research by a number of veteran's groups, and it turns out the "general" completely fabricated his military history. The stories that arise out of that must be false as well. Nobody would have known any better if it hadn't been for increased contact between the cultures and interchange between people with disparate interests that happen to intersect in significant places.
There was a great quote from a sci-fi book to the effect that "Bad communications deter theft. Good communications encourage theft. Perfect communications prevent theft." The same holds true for self-serving falsehoods. It doesn't mean people won't try. The ratio of clumsy liars in any human population has always been approximately one per mouth. It does mean that it's harder to succeed, and their continued credibility relies more heavily on getting peoples' egos thoroughly invested in the stories than on simple ignorance.
Tellner better communications certainly has helped us to understand what is real and who trained with who. (excellent post)
Hwang Kee himself told us that Tang Soo Do was a generic term for martial arts.
He said that when the first person picked up a rock and defended himself against an attacker, that was TSD. When somebody shaped a spear and defended himself, that was TSD. When somebody constructed a tank and defended his country, that was TSD. I am paraphrasing this quote, because the book isn't in front of me, but I think the point is preserved.
TSD is just not as involved in the Korean identity as is TKD.
I could expound upon this point, but I feel several digressions building within me. This, however, is something that many TSD people still need to learn. Anyone who is still asking the question "What is TSD?" or even worse, "What is the REAL TSD?" is missing Hwang Kee's point.
Hell, I have been guilty of this in the past. Change is difficult. Ryu pa anyone?
He said that when the first person picked up a rock and defended himself against an attacker, that was TSD. When somebody shaped a spear and defended himself, that was TSD. When somebody constructed a tank and defended his country, that was TSD. I am paraphrasing this quote, because the book isn't in front of me, but I think the point is preserved.
TSD is just not as involved in the Korean identity as is TKD.
I could expound upon this point, but I feel several digressions building within me. This, however, is something that many TSD people still need to learn. Anyone who is still asking the question "What is TSD?" or even worse, "What is the REAL TSD?" is missing Hwang Kee's point.
Hell, I have been guilty of this in the past. Change is difficult. Ryu pa anyone?
Ninjamom
2nd Black Belt
Bumping exile's question from a few posts back, could someone please proivide more information on the yuk rho fporms, including where they came from, what they entail, and maybe some links to vids?
I was just reading in the MYDTJ again, and the long-fist derived fist techniques were broken into 6 paths (yuk rho) and 10 levels. Just looking for any possible/meaningful connection.
I was just reading in the MYDTJ again, and the long-fist derived fist techniques were broken into 6 paths (yuk rho) and 10 levels. Just looking for any possible/meaningful connection.
The short of it is that the Chil Sung and Yungno forms were created by Hwang Kee based off of his interpretations of various CMA and MYDTJ. These forms are considered the essence of SBD is supposed to be.
I can only give my limited understanding, but here is what I know.
Both the Chil Sung and Yuk Ro forms were created by Hwang Kee, I believe in the 70s. As for why they were created, I have heard different things. There is the ever present rumor that the Federation is trying to de-emphasize the japanese influence. There is the fact that Hwang Kee was trying to "Koreanize" Soo Bahk Do more, through the creation of Korean only forms. There is the story that he was trying to bring his chinese training in more to "soften" the art. Could be any of these or a combination.
Both sets of forms are characterized by long, chinese stances. They have a contrast between fast and slow, hard and soft movements. Both also have some unique movements, not really seen in other forms.
This is where I personally feel that the two differ. Yuk Ro seems to me to be a lot more original. With a lot of movements created specifically for those forms - and believe it or not, some movements that I can actually see in the MDTJ. The Chil Sung Forms, though, tend to be more conglomerations of other forms. Though they have some of their own movements, they seem to just be textbooks of the pyahng ahns and more advanced hyung. For example, both Chil Sung Il and Ee are in the Kicho pattern. Ee is fairly simply in execution, but has many more movements than the Kichos and is much more advanced. Chil Sung Il does have some unique movements which are hard to interpret. Whereas Chil Sung Sam seem to be practically a textbook of Ship Soo, Pyahn Ahn Sa Dan, and Bassai.
I asked about the meaning of the two forms names while I was in Korea. I got the answer that Yuk Ro means "A man walking on a path." Chil Sung means "Seven stars." And I have also heard the story that Hwang Kee's mother dreamt of 7 stars when he was born or something along those lines.
I personally never seen the pyahng ahn forms being eliminated from the Soo Bahk Do curriculum. There will always be talk of it and we will probably continue to soften the style, but those hyung are too important to get rid of completely - even if all of their movements are in the Chil Sungs somewhere!
