Kodokan vs. Budokan

[Saitama Steve]

It was stated that there was no other Judo
other than the Kodokan which was false

The Jikishin Ryu has survived & has an organization
Through out Europe & some Reps in the States.

It was Stated that REAL Judoka know That there
is no other Judo Than The Kodokan Which is
A Blind Statement When Ulook at History.......

And For the Record Kano was 1st a Ju Jitsu Man.
Haveing studied 3 differnt forms of Ju Jitsu

He took out the harmful Tec. Such as Leg Locks
& Kicking & Striking during Randori out

Kano Studyed Kito Ryu ,Tenjinshino Ryu & Yoshin Ryu
All are forms of Ju Jitsu.

He also had many Students who had spent most of there lives
Practising Ju Jitsu.....

Back to The Jikishin Ryu They were the 1st to Use the Name
So to say ther r was no other styel of Judo is a Lie

Quote from Neil Adams Kodokan Judo was Kano's form of Ju Jitsu
Point Made :wavey:

Yes, it was stated that there is no other form of judo than Kodokan judo. You say this is false. OK, go find me Jikishin ryu judo in Japan. It doesn't exist.

No, Kano Jigoro studied two forms of classical jujutsu. Tenjin Shinyo ryu and Kito ryu. Kano learned Tenjin Shinyo ryu under Fukuda Hachinosuke and later, under the 3rd generation soke of the ryuha, Iso Masatomo. Iso Masatomo awarded Kano Menkyo Kaiden shortly after he opened the Kodokan. Kano learned Kito ryu under IIkubo Tsunetoshi and was a awarded Menkyo Kaiden in that ryuha too.

Kano didn't study Yoshin ryu. His school, the Kodokan fought against Totsuka ha Yoshin ryu jujutsu at one of the police jujutsu matches during the Meiji era. (BTW, Tenjin Shinyo ryu jujutsu is an amalgamation of two ryuha; Yoshin ryu and Shin No Shindo ryu)

I have it on good knowledge that the leglocks weren't taken out of the Kodokan syllabus until the mid-1930's Another thing to look at is Mifune Kyuzo's "The Canon of Judo" which contains several leglocks as standard kansetsu waza.

and, yes Jikishin ryu were the first to use the term judo, but they aren't around any more. The ryuha is extinct. Therefore, there is only one form of Judo at the moment and that is Kodokan judo.

 

[Patrick Skerry]

Ah, but there's the rub. The British jujutsu school featured on that website has absolutely nothing to do with the old Jikishin ryu. What they do is BJJA jujutsu, which is an amalgamation of judo, karate, aikido and old WW2 combatives tricks (If they still teach them).

Bear in mind, that there are weapons school out there with similar names (e.g. Jikishin kage ryu naginatajutsu & Kashima Shinden Jikishinkage ryu kenjutsu) but there is no school of classical jujutsu in Japan called Jikishin ryu. The only jikishin ryu you will find these days, is Jikishin ryu Kado.

Kado is the way of insence. You wanna smell good? Go there!

Hello Saitama Steve,

Nice post with interesting information. Just a question, if Jikishin ryu is currently extinct or defunct, how or why would that particular British jujutsu school featured in that website comeup or utilize the name of Jikishin ryu? Why would they use that name? Thanks!

 

[Saitama Steve]

Hello Saitama Steve,

Nice post with interesting information. Just a question, if Jikishin ryu is currently extinct or defunct, how or why would that particular British jujutsu school featured in that website comeup or utilize the name of Jikishin ryu? Why would they use that name? Thanks!

Because it's a famous name and they probably liked it.

Also there's probably the marketing aspect; If prospective students do their homework and study a little about the history of jujutsu & judo, invariably, Jikishin ryu is mentioned because of it's coining of the term "judo". Prospective students will think that what they are training and teaching is the real deal and will join.

 

[Steve Scott]

Robert and Patrick both have excellent posts on this subject and are completely accurate. I really can't add much of anything to this discussion other than it's great to see people think with such clarity and express themselves this well.
Prof. Kano was a brilliant man and his Kodokan literally re-shaped the world of jujutsu and bujutsu. It's my belief that if Prof. had not developed Kodokan Judo, the jujutsu ryuha of Japan would not have survived at all, even though the Kodokan did obsure many of them. Jujutsu (jujitsu) as we know it today would not exist, except for a few schools of jujutsu. Japan in the Meiji era simply was turning away from the fuedal military arts, including jujutsu and it was Kano who kept these arts alive. His political and social influence was possibly as instrumental as the technical innovations of the Kodokan in keeping the martial disciplines alive and thriving in Japan.
Kodokan Judo is the only "style" of judo today. Some people in various locations may have altered judo to fit their own needs or philosophy of training, but as Patrick pointed out, there are no "styles" of judo as in other martial arts.
Steve Scott

 

[Saitama Steve]

On the contrary, Steve,

Kodokan Judo contributed to the decline in popularity of koryu jujutsu. Especially after the police jujutsu matches during the Meiji era.

After the kodokan beat Totsuka Ha Yoshin ryu and Ryoi Shinto ryu in 1883 at the Tokyo Metropolitan Police Station dojo, the popularity of the more classical and individualistic budo ryuha waned and the more group oriented gendai budo became more and more popular.

However, Kano did teach and preserve the more classical aspects of koryu jujutsu in Kodokan judo by creating the kime no kata, which is a selection of techniques derived from Tenjin shinyo ryu jujutsu. Then there is the Itsutsu No Kata, which are the five final kata taught in Tenjin Shinyo ryu jujutsu's syallabus (Albeit slightly changed from the koryu).

Kano also taught the Koshiki Kata, which are the Omote and Ura sections from Kito ryu jujutsu.

 

[Steve Scott]

You and I are in agreement Steve. Prof. Kano preserved the jujutsu kata you mentioned by incorporating them into his Kodokan...thus, preserving them.
My point was simply that Kano's significant influence in Japanese society and the world of sport (albeit a fledgling one in Japan at the time) was his springboard to preserve the culture of jujtsu in Japan. The Japanese in the Meiji era were turning from the feudal ways of Japan and the bugei arts were no exception. I'm sure some of the traditional schools would have remained without Kano's influence, and have to this day, but Kano was instrumental in keeping the martial disciplines (at least what we call jujutsu) in front of the general population.
However...you are quite correct in saying that the Kodokan helped in the immediate decline of koryu jujutsu in Japan. Many jujutsu masters were resentful of Kano's influence. It seems that the Kodokan incorporated the older jujutsu systems and the masters of those systems lost their influence on their arts. A shame...truly, from both a cultural and technical point of view.
I enjoy our conversation Steve. It's not often that martial arts people can discuss these things on forums like this. I've looked in at other martial arts forums from time to time and read too much bickering and superficial chat. Seems like a lot of kids telling each other how tough they are and not much more. I'm probably a "nerd" when it comes to this stuff, but I thoroughly enjoy the history of the Japanese martial disciplines, primarily judo and jujutsu.
Steve Scott

 

[ace]

http://www.bstkd.com/bulletin1.htm

Acording to this Artical from JAPAN
Kano Studied Guess? :asian:

 

[Saitama Steve]

Well if it's written on the internet, it must without a doubt has to be categorically 100% true!

Kano didn't study Jikishin ryu.

He studied Tenjin Shinyo ryu (天神真楊流 ) under Fukuda Hachinosuke & Iso Masatomo and Kito ryu (起倒流 ) under Iikubo Tsunetoshi.

Kano Jigoro

Tenjin shinyo ryu

 

[ace]

Kito Ryu Jikishin Ryu Connection.

http:www.jujitsusites.com/urmstonjj lindex.cfm.cfm?page+6
If The Link does not Go Through U can look up Kito Ryu Jikishn Ryu
Connection or Urmston ju jitsu

 

[ace]

Another Link http://jujitsu.gungfu.com

 

[Saitama Steve]

OK, when was the last time you were at the Kodokan? Have you seen Kano sensei's makimono (teaching scrolls) for Tenjin Shinyo ryu?

Have you even tried to do some bonafide research outside of the internet on this?

Putting all of this faith into information written on a webpage when you don't know if it's true or not is a bit of wooly thinking isn't it?

 

[ace]

OK, when was the last time you were at the Kodokan? Have you seen Kano sensei's makimono (teaching scrolls) for Tenjin Shinyo ryu?

Have you even tried to do some bonafide research outside of the internet on this?

Putting all of this faith into information written on a webpage when you don't know if it's true or not is a bit of wooly thinking isn't it?

I read alot About Martial Arts When Im Not Mixing it up
In The Cage , or Competing in Grappling ,Ju Jitsu So on.

Yes I've done tons of Reserch from The Computer
And Yes I've Read Ton's of Books On Many Martial Arts

I have a good Section O Judo,Ju Jitsu as well as other
Martial Arts. I've Been Envolved in Martial Arts on & off since I was 2
Years old

No Never Been to The Kodokan.

 

[Saitama Steve]

Well then just because a few webpages on the internet say that Kano studied Jikishin ryu, that doesn't mean it's true.

I train in Kodokan judo, classical jujutsu and weaponry and I also try and mix it up now and then with a bit of vale tudo. Part of the learning process for these martial arts is to learn the history and the roots of these arts.

If you get the chance, read THIS BOOK

Lots of good quality, well researched information, by professional teachers and researchers of classical & modern Japanese martial arts.

Cheers mate.

 

[ace]

Well then just because a few webpages on the internet say that Kano studied Jikishin ryu, that doesn't mean it's true.

I train in Kodokan judo, classical jujutsu and weaponry and I also try and mix it up now and then with a bit of vale tudo. Part of the learning process for these martial arts is to learn the history and the roots of these arts.

If you get the chance, read THIS BOOK

Lots of good quality, well researched information, by professional teachers and researchers of classical & modern Japanese martial arts.

Cheers mate.

looks decent will have to check it out

 

[Patrick Skerry]

OK, when was the last time you were at the Kodokan? Have you seen Kano sensei's makimono (teaching scrolls) for Tenjin Shinyo ryu?

Have you even tried to do some bonafide research outside of the internet on this?

Putting all of this faith into information written on a webpage when you don't know if it's true or not is a bit of wooly thinking isn't it?

Hi,

I just want to agree with you about the shortcomings of the internet for any serious research. The internet is an open forum and some of the veracity of the information is very suspect, if the subject is covered at all. You always have to verify the data you find on the web, usually it means back to the books.
The internet is good for a general place to start, or a quick look for a subject, but that is about it. Just because a subject is on the web does not grant it instant validation!

 

[Patrick Skerry]

If you get the chance, read THIS BOOK

Very good book. I was fortunate to have read it several times at the Boston Public Library before it went missing.

 

[Steve Scott]

Just to confirm the point Saitama Steve is making...Before there was ever such a thing as the Internet, back in the "old days" of the mid 1960s, I was a voracious reader of BLACK BELT magazine. In those days, BLACK BELT covered a lot of judo, classical bugei, obsure Korean and Chinese martial arts, and other great subjects. If you can get your hands on any old issues of BLACK BELT magazine from the 1960s through mid-1970s, you will have a gold mine of information on the martial arts.
I have a book collection of about 100 to 125 judo, jujutsu and sambo books in various languages (none are in Japanese). But I do have a rare copy of the CANON OF JUDO by Mifune in the collection and this is a masterpiece.
There is a lot of good information on the Internet, but there is also some stuff that is just plain incorrect. You have to be careful and attempt to verify any information with other media such as books, videos or publications.
I did spend a brief time at the Kodokan and I would encourage any serious judoka to do the same. I enjoyed it immensely, took some great beatings in the main dojo and learned a lot about myself and my judo.
Steve Scott

 

[JDenz]

The problem with alot of things that are history are even if you get a book that doesn't mean it is true either. Espically in MA. You can find books from all the diffrent era's and they all say diffrent things. Writting about whatever is popular at the time and embellishing those arts.
By the way lol Ace time to get back in the cage everywhere you go you are getting in fights online lol.

 

[ace]

Jan. 2005 I should be ready by then.