WindsorMAGuy28
Yellow Belt
Hello, Don't know if this has been asked before... I would like to know what techiques are identical in Judo and Jujitsu? Are the throws, sweeps and breakfalls all the same?
What techniques common to Judo & Jujitsu?
- Thread starter WindsorMAGuy28
- Start date
Kempojujutsu
Master Black Belt
Most of the throws would be close to being the same. Breakfalling would be the same.
as i've posted in other threads...non-sport judo and jujutsu include almost all the same techniques...the difference is the philosophy and the application of techniques...obviously jujutsu has more focus on strikes than judo...
OP
WindsorMAGuy28
Yellow Belt
- Thread Starter
- #4
Thanks for the replies. The reason I ask is, I've found a jujitsu school that is about 45 min outside the city where I live. Currently, they are offering class once a week, with plans to start offering second class on saturdays in the fall. I'm familiar with the kicking and punching, from my training in Kenpo. Ive been searching for a jujitsu school, to learn joint locks throws, groundfighting. The jujitsu style, is kyushu-ryu style. If I'm not able to always make it jujitsu class, I was wondering about studying judo as well.
WindsorMAGuy28 said:
Judo & Ju Jitsu are ment to go together.
Even Early in the history of Kodokan Ju Jutsu was
Practise a long side Judo this became forgoton with time
as has been stated by many Judoka.
Kano was a Ju Jitsusan as were many of the
early members of the Kodokan.
Techniques to look for will be found in Kansetsu Waza ,Shime Waza
& Nage Waza. Ju jitsu will most likely of More Techniques with Less
Randori. Randori Is verry Important When Test What will work
For u In a Live Situation.
Make no mistake, Judo is VERY different from traditional jujutsu. It's techniques came from jujutsu, and in many ways the techniques of Judo have almost identical counterparts in Jujutsu ryus.
However, there are much fewer "standard" Judo techniques than you would find in most jujutsu ryu. I say standard, because there are almost infinite variances on Judo techniques in the world of competition. Also, Judo versions of techniques have a slightly different (read more sport oriented) flavor. Many techniques of jujutsu are not allowed or even trained in judo. For example, in judo you will not see any wrist, finger, knee, ankle locks...only shoulder and elbow. Also even elbow locks are limited to specific applications (no flying techniques for one). That having been said, Judo techniques are still brutally effective for self-defense...just think about it...the pinacle technique in judo is a forceful drop of the opponent on their upper back (ippon) simmulating breaking their neck!
IMHO, I would train in Judo before I trained in traditional jujutsu. One, I like the sporting aspect and two, less techniques allow you to spend more time learning the art and flow...also you get in shape, enhance your reaction spead, regularly practice against a resisting opponent, and learn fighting spirit. You will have to adjust things for self defense (like don't go turtle on the street), but that is easily done if you have the mindset to disable your assailant.
However, there are much fewer "standard" Judo techniques than you would find in most jujutsu ryu. I say standard, because there are almost infinite variances on Judo techniques in the world of competition. Also, Judo versions of techniques have a slightly different (read more sport oriented) flavor. Many techniques of jujutsu are not allowed or even trained in judo. For example, in judo you will not see any wrist, finger, knee, ankle locks...only shoulder and elbow. Also even elbow locks are limited to specific applications (no flying techniques for one). That having been said, Judo techniques are still brutally effective for self-defense...just think about it...the pinacle technique in judo is a forceful drop of the opponent on their upper back (ippon) simmulating breaking their neck!
IMHO, I would train in Judo before I trained in traditional jujutsu. One, I like the sporting aspect and two, less techniques allow you to spend more time learning the art and flow...also you get in shape, enhance your reaction spead, regularly practice against a resisting opponent, and learn fighting spirit. You will have to adjust things for self defense (like don't go turtle on the street), but that is easily done if you have the mindset to disable your assailant.
(Divinsenko )
Was well Known for his "FLYING" Juiji Gatame. And was a fine Judoka
If U Like Competion You Shoud Try competeing for the USJJF.
All Kumite Competion are allowed & Recive points
For
Strkies While Standing
Throwing & Take Downs
Pins & Submisson.
Both Arm & Leg Submissons are Leagal in cluding
Heel Hooks,Arm Bars,kneebars & all Flying Tech.
Stragulation is allowed But Neck Cranks are banned.
Strkies are Allowed to The Sides of the Head & Body
From The Waist up.
Kicks From The Hips to The Shoulders.
They have National & State Events in The U.S.
JJIF Host the world championships.
I competed for 4 years before Switching to NHB/MMA
Which is were I will Stay for Now.
Was well Known for his "FLYING" Juiji Gatame. And was a fine Judoka
If U Like Competion You Shoud Try competeing for the USJJF.
All Kumite Competion are allowed & Recive points
For
Strkies While Standing
Throwing & Take Downs
Pins & Submisson.
Both Arm & Leg Submissons are Leagal in cluding
Heel Hooks,Arm Bars,kneebars & all Flying Tech.
Stragulation is allowed But Neck Cranks are banned.
Strkies are Allowed to The Sides of the Head & Body
From The Waist up.
Kicks From The Hips to The Shoulders.
They have National & State Events in The U.S.
JJIF Host the world championships.
I competed for 4 years before Switching to NHB/MMA
Which is were I will Stay for Now.
W
wadokai_indo
Guest
Well, you have to go to specific Ryuha to go into specific details.WindsorMAGuy28 said:
For example:
-Judo Osotogari uses the same mechanism with Daito-ryu Kurumadaoshi and KJJR/Takagi Yoshin-ryu Sotowa.
-Judo Ippon Seoinage uses the same mechanism as KJJR/Takagi Yoshin-ryu Katate Seoinage.
And so on
Hope this helps!
P
Patrick Skerry
Guest
That really depends on the style of jiu jitsu you are talking about. I don't see a lot of simularities between sensei Wally Jay's 'Small Circle' jiu jitsu and judo. But I see a lot of simularities between American Jiu jitsu and judo.
Also, in judo, you will see a major difference between yamarashi (mountain drop throw) and ippon seionage (one armed shoulder throw) as performed by judo and jiu jitsu.
In jiu jitsu, the one armed shoulder throw is performed with the arm held upwards with uki's elbow directly on tori's shoulder, breaking it as uki is thrown - not so in judo. Judo bends the arm so no harm is done as uki is being thrown. A simular situation occurs with yamarashi. In jiu jitsu, a yamarashi throw will dislocate the attacker's shoulder and break his arm as he is dashed to the ground. Again, in judo, this is a powerful enough throw to knock the guy out, but not seriously maim or kill him as in jiu jitsu.
So judo has modified jiu jitsu throws as to be less lethal, but powerful in their own right. Kind of like getting punched by a professional boxer wearing 32 ounce gloves, he will still knock you out but the chance of killing you is lowered.
Also, in judo, you will see a major difference between yamarashi (mountain drop throw) and ippon seionage (one armed shoulder throw) as performed by judo and jiu jitsu.
In jiu jitsu, the one armed shoulder throw is performed with the arm held upwards with uki's elbow directly on tori's shoulder, breaking it as uki is thrown - not so in judo. Judo bends the arm so no harm is done as uki is being thrown. A simular situation occurs with yamarashi. In jiu jitsu, a yamarashi throw will dislocate the attacker's shoulder and break his arm as he is dashed to the ground. Again, in judo, this is a powerful enough throw to knock the guy out, but not seriously maim or kill him as in jiu jitsu.
So judo has modified jiu jitsu throws as to be less lethal, but powerful in their own right. Kind of like getting punched by a professional boxer wearing 32 ounce gloves, he will still knock you out but the chance of killing you is lowered.
I think we need to realize that there is a difference between sport judo and classical judo...just because it's not legal in competition doesn't mean it isn't practiced...the variations you mention we do in judo...and in jujutsu we do the bent arm variations too...it's all about situation...in jujutsu, not every technique has to lead to injury or death...maybe this is someone you don't necessarily want to hurt...just to control them...which is the nice thing about the bent arm seoi nage is it allows you to throw someone and control how they land...lifting up will protect their head from hitting the ground...also this gives you an arm to work with to apply a submission...
again...i feel the difference is on emphasis...if you throw someone on concrete who doesn't know how to fall...it doesn't matter how you hold their arm...if you don't support them their head is probably gonna smash into the ground, at that point...whether or not their arm is broken doesn't really come into play...look at the goshin jutsu kata in judo...it's filled with all sorts of strikes, chokes, wrist locks and arm bars...not much of it is competition legal...but any good judo school is still practicing these things...yes, they are not as emphasized...but they're still there
again...i feel the difference is on emphasis...if you throw someone on concrete who doesn't know how to fall...it doesn't matter how you hold their arm...if you don't support them their head is probably gonna smash into the ground, at that point...whether or not their arm is broken doesn't really come into play...look at the goshin jutsu kata in judo...it's filled with all sorts of strikes, chokes, wrist locks and arm bars...not much of it is competition legal...but any good judo school is still practicing these things...yes, they are not as emphasized...but they're still there
P
Patrick Skerry
Guest
But what do you mean by 'sport' judo? Judo is a martial art, not a sport! Just as kendo is a martial art, not a sport. Kodokan judo is classical judo, and a shiai is not a game, it is technique testing.
Just because Dr. Kano got judo accepted into the Olympics doesn't automatically make judo a sport. Dr. Kano never ever called his innovation [judo] a sport, physical education maybe, but never a sport. Dr. Kano emphasized jodan judo (high judo), the IJF and the IOC emphasize godan judo (low judo), and that is where the trouble lies.
Also, what contest rules do you refer? The IJF rules or the AJJF rules? Each organization, including the Kodokan itself, plays judo by different rules.
Yes it is true that judo contains a number of self-defense techniques not allowed in shiai, but that is for good reason. It is one of differences between the practice of a 'do' form and a 'jutsu' form of martial art (not sport!). It also makes the 100% application of a judo technique safe and survivable.
What is now being practiced in the Olympics and the World Championships is a mutation of judo, not judo itself. If you want to describe judo as 'evolving' then you must understand that the process of evolution also contains 'mutation' and 'extinction'; and Olympic judo is a sportification mutation of judo, that will drive it into extinction.
There are two or three techniques, such as juji-gatame and hadaka jime, that are used in a judo shiai that are also unchanged jiu-jutsu techniques. So some jiu-jitsu techniques are used in a judo contest unadulterated.
Just because Dr. Kano got judo accepted into the Olympics doesn't automatically make judo a sport. Dr. Kano never ever called his innovation [judo] a sport, physical education maybe, but never a sport. Dr. Kano emphasized jodan judo (high judo), the IJF and the IOC emphasize godan judo (low judo), and that is where the trouble lies.
Also, what contest rules do you refer? The IJF rules or the AJJF rules? Each organization, including the Kodokan itself, plays judo by different rules.
Yes it is true that judo contains a number of self-defense techniques not allowed in shiai, but that is for good reason. It is one of differences between the practice of a 'do' form and a 'jutsu' form of martial art (not sport!). It also makes the 100% application of a judo technique safe and survivable.
What is now being practiced in the Olympics and the World Championships is a mutation of judo, not judo itself. If you want to describe judo as 'evolving' then you must understand that the process of evolution also contains 'mutation' and 'extinction'; and Olympic judo is a sportification mutation of judo, that will drive it into extinction.
There are two or three techniques, such as juji-gatame and hadaka jime, that are used in a judo shiai that are also unchanged jiu-jutsu techniques. So some jiu-jitsu techniques are used in a judo contest unadulterated.
bignick said:
you answered your own question about what is sport judo...there are people today that practice judo entirely for the sporting aspect and to compete in tournaments, the focus is entirely on the most effective competition techniques and anything that isn't competition legal is glazed over or not even taught...having talked with some kendoka the same phenomenon exists in kendo
that is sport judo
and as for judo being a martial art (japanese bujutsu, bugei)...this is a very broad term that has come to apply to any sort of combat system, but if you look at what it means, judo isn't either...judo is a -do or way and it wasn't developed for military purposes...of course, examined this way quite a few martial arts actually aren't...jujutsu on the other hand is a martial art and its original purpose was for the battlefield...obviously it has evolved past that...
things change and as judo today doesn't necessarily reflect Prof. Kano's original concept of what judo was...should it? you can't really answer that question, because like you said things change over time and there is no helping that...in fact, if my memory serves me correctly judo, in some instances, was still referred to as kano jujutsu until the 1930's...
to me the the differences between judo and jujutsu are not always black and white...sometimes there's a grey area and sometimes there's no distinction at all...
that is sport judo
and as for judo being a martial art (japanese bujutsu, bugei)...this is a very broad term that has come to apply to any sort of combat system, but if you look at what it means, judo isn't either...judo is a -do or way and it wasn't developed for military purposes...of course, examined this way quite a few martial arts actually aren't...jujutsu on the other hand is a martial art and its original purpose was for the battlefield...obviously it has evolved past that...
things change and as judo today doesn't necessarily reflect Prof. Kano's original concept of what judo was...should it? you can't really answer that question, because like you said things change over time and there is no helping that...in fact, if my memory serves me correctly judo, in some instances, was still referred to as kano jujutsu until the 1930's...
to me the the differences between judo and jujutsu are not always black and white...sometimes there's a grey area and sometimes there's no distinction at all...
A
auxprix
Guest
Now, I usually keep pretty silent on this issue, because I know that it's going to cause a huge blitzkreig directed towards myself. But here it is:
What exactly is so wrong with a martial art evolving into a sport?
I honestly don't expect to ever have to use what I learn in a street combat situation. I assume this because I tend to avoid places that could result in risky situations, and I work very hard to avoid fighting whenever possible (and it's worked so far, as I've never been in a fight). Therefore, I prefer to do Judo for fun. And what makes Judo fun, at least for me, is that I can practice it on other people with little fear of hurting them or getting hurt myself. This is why I'm not interested in learning how to do deadly techniques.
Now, I'm going to assume that at least one person will read this and say "He just doesn't get it because he has never tried classical martial arts." Well, I've been on both sides of the tracks. I've trained in both clasical style and sport style Judo and aikido, and I've found that I prefer sport.
I have much more that I want to write, but I don't have the time. so I'll close with this.
Martial arts are as diverse as the people who practice them. People go into MAs for many different reasons, and find a system that is best suited for them. Whether a system has a classical or sport emphasis doesn't matter. What DOES matter is that it delivers what is promised. It is often said on the forums that there are no good or bad Martial arts, just good or bad Martial artists. I think that this can be expanded to read "there are no good or bad martial arts systems, just good and bad Martial Arts Studios."
And with that, I'm out.
What exactly is so wrong with a martial art evolving into a sport?
I honestly don't expect to ever have to use what I learn in a street combat situation. I assume this because I tend to avoid places that could result in risky situations, and I work very hard to avoid fighting whenever possible (and it's worked so far, as I've never been in a fight). Therefore, I prefer to do Judo for fun. And what makes Judo fun, at least for me, is that I can practice it on other people with little fear of hurting them or getting hurt myself. This is why I'm not interested in learning how to do deadly techniques.
Now, I'm going to assume that at least one person will read this and say "He just doesn't get it because he has never tried classical martial arts." Well, I've been on both sides of the tracks. I've trained in both clasical style and sport style Judo and aikido, and I've found that I prefer sport.
I have much more that I want to write, but I don't have the time. so I'll close with this.
Martial arts are as diverse as the people who practice them. People go into MAs for many different reasons, and find a system that is best suited for them. Whether a system has a classical or sport emphasis doesn't matter. What DOES matter is that it delivers what is promised. It is often said on the forums that there are no good or bad Martial arts, just good or bad Martial artists. I think that this can be expanded to read "there are no good or bad martial arts systems, just good and bad Martial Arts Studios."
And with that, I'm out.
auxprix, i think you nailed it on the head...my intention was to never come down on sport judo...because all judo has a sporting aspect to it, whether you want to admit it or not...
you're right as long as the school is honest about what they're teaching and that's what you want to learn...that's all the matters
you're right as long as the school is honest about what they're teaching and that's what you want to learn...that's all the matters
P
Patrick Skerry
Guest
Hi Guys,
As I mentioned earlier, there are two or three jiu jitsu techniques (probably a lot more) being used in a judo shiai that are not altered or modified. As we all know and I don't want to sound condenscending, Dr. Kano, then later the Kodokan, removed certain deadly jiu-jitsu techniques from judo purposely to make it safer for randori and shiai. Yet those techniques are still practiced in judo kata, the kime no kata as a quick example.
But neither the Japanese nor Dr. Kano ever intended for judo to become a sport. In several of his papers, Dr. Kano made it perfectly clear he did not want judo to develop the way it is going today, as "circus like entertainment." He did not want it to become 'professional', as it seems to be engineered in that direction by the International Olympic Committee in cahoots with the International Judo Federation - modifying the rules encouraging 'attacking' judo and penalizing 'defensive' judo to appease ticket buying spectators; using a 'blue' gi; and the 'Golden Score' to allow spectators a relationship with sports.
The blue gi almost caused total alienation of the IOC and the IJF by the Kodokan and the All Japan Judo Federation, and the Kodokan and the AJJF refuse to use the blue gi in their shiais (GOOD FOR THEM!). The blue gi and the golden score are a slap in the face to Dr. Jigoro Kano and Kodokan judo! And I personnally have already refused to wear the blue gi, as some of my older sensei's have refused.
But to keep this short, the sportification of a martial art cheapens the life and death origins of that style. Judo is a martial art like karate, not a sport like hockey (the 'Golden Score' is equivalent to sudden death overtime in hockey), and all sports panders to the the ticket paying masses, providing them with cheap thrills and means nothing other than a bet.
As I mentioned earlier, there are two or three jiu jitsu techniques (probably a lot more) being used in a judo shiai that are not altered or modified. As we all know and I don't want to sound condenscending, Dr. Kano, then later the Kodokan, removed certain deadly jiu-jitsu techniques from judo purposely to make it safer for randori and shiai. Yet those techniques are still practiced in judo kata, the kime no kata as a quick example.
But neither the Japanese nor Dr. Kano ever intended for judo to become a sport. In several of his papers, Dr. Kano made it perfectly clear he did not want judo to develop the way it is going today, as "circus like entertainment." He did not want it to become 'professional', as it seems to be engineered in that direction by the International Olympic Committee in cahoots with the International Judo Federation - modifying the rules encouraging 'attacking' judo and penalizing 'defensive' judo to appease ticket buying spectators; using a 'blue' gi; and the 'Golden Score' to allow spectators a relationship with sports.
The blue gi almost caused total alienation of the IOC and the IJF by the Kodokan and the All Japan Judo Federation, and the Kodokan and the AJJF refuse to use the blue gi in their shiais (GOOD FOR THEM!). The blue gi and the golden score are a slap in the face to Dr. Jigoro Kano and Kodokan judo! And I personnally have already refused to wear the blue gi, as some of my older sensei's have refused.
But to keep this short, the sportification of a martial art cheapens the life and death origins of that style. Judo is a martial art like karate, not a sport like hockey (the 'Golden Score' is equivalent to sudden death overtime in hockey), and all sports panders to the the ticket paying masses, providing them with cheap thrills and means nothing other than a bet.
you talk about the life and death origins of judo...
i'm gonna have to argue with that one...you yourself said that Kano removed "deadly jiu-jitsu" techniques to make it safer for randori and shiai...that is where the "sporting" aspect of judo is...killing your uke is highly discouraged...otherwise you'll run out of uke's...also people say kano removed deadly techniques...what kano did was take the most efficient techniques he could find and eliminated the ones that didn't work or were dangerous(usually more dangerous to tori than uke)
i do have problems with the encouragement of attacking...
but kano himself died after on the return trip home from proposing tokyo as the site of the olympic games...which is when judo was first an olympic sport
i'm gonna have to argue with that one...you yourself said that Kano removed "deadly jiu-jitsu" techniques to make it safer for randori and shiai...that is where the "sporting" aspect of judo is...killing your uke is highly discouraged...otherwise you'll run out of uke's...also people say kano removed deadly techniques...what kano did was take the most efficient techniques he could find and eliminated the ones that didn't work or were dangerous(usually more dangerous to tori than uke)
i do have problems with the encouragement of attacking...
but kano himself died after on the return trip home from proposing tokyo as the site of the olympic games...which is when judo was first an olympic sport
P
Patrick Skerry
Guest
Hi Richard,bignick said:
I just meant that judo was derived from jiu-jitsu (three or more styles I believe), and the various styles found in the martial arts were all developed through deadly combat. Even Kano jiu-jitsu (ju-do) had to prove itself to the hard core jiu-jitsu practitioners of the time, through a serious of dangerous fights.
Dr. Kano had to remove the deadlier jiu-jitsu techniques from his judo in order to conform with the edicts regarding the samurai and their craft during the Meiji Restoration (1868-1912) which transformed bugei into budo. Budo is still not sport!
It is only recently, within the last decade or so, that the Olympic Committee and its partner in mutation, the IJF, has been crowbarring a square peg into a round hole in trying to transform judo into a sport.
I agree that Dr. Kano removed the jiu-jitsu techniques that didn't work, or were dangerous - to either tori or uke. And the Kodokan has revised the accepted list of Kodokan judo techniques in 1982, and removed a few proven harmful in international tournament (kani basami and waki gatame being two). But these modifications don't turn a budo into a sport.
And finally, yes, tragically Dr. Kano died of pnuemonia on his return trip from Europe finally pushing his judo into the Olympics, but again, simply getting judo accepted into the Olympics did not magically change all budo/ judo into a sport.
And the manipulation of the contest rules encouraging 'attacking' judo, as demonstrated in the 2004 Athens Olympics, is detestable.
There is an international organization formally protesting the sportifying of judo and it is called the "Kano Society". This organization protests and openly resists the manipulation of judo into some kind of sport. They have a website at: http://www.kanosociety.org/ and I fully agree with their position.
well...then we have found common ground because i dislike the idea of being forced to attack...
attacking creates a weakness and sets you off-balance and being forced to do so every few seconds leads to really bad judo...
attacking creates a weakness and sets you off-balance and being forced to do so every few seconds leads to really bad judo...
P
Patrick Skerry
Guest
Hello Richard:bignick said:
I agree with you 100% that being forced to attack will only lead to really bad judo. That is why I dislike the 'Golden Score' so much. It only makes the shimpan's (referee) job easier by making the judo player lose by the first score or penalty. The golden score seems just a contrivance to appease the spectator, putting two competing judoka in the position of simply providing entertainment; the golden score will only encourage 'gamesmanship', and that is not within the spirit of judo. So judo is not a sport, and by forcing it to resemble one, will only ruin it.
:-offtopic
well i don't think this discussion really belongs here anymore...but i have to disagree with the golden score...judo itself works on this type of scale...a full ippon ends the match and that's it...i'd much have the contest decided in over time by the contestants than by the referee's...because that brings in human judgement/error...and after watching this years olympic games we all see where that can lead
well i don't think this discussion really belongs here anymore...but i have to disagree with the golden score...judo itself works on this type of scale...a full ippon ends the match and that's it...i'd much have the contest decided in over time by the contestants than by the referee's...because that brings in human judgement/error...and after watching this years olympic games we all see where that can lead
