Knife Practicioners take note!

[Rich Parsons]

Now you bouncers out there dont take this the wrong way, but IMO bouncers should be there to ID, stop fights and intervene only when necessary. When it comes to removing somebody that isnt a danger to the other patrons, they should ask the person to leave and if they refuse, tell them, threaten them with trespass charges or talk them out if possible. If that fails call the police and have them remove them or charge them with trespass. Ive arrested bouncers for assault because they laid hands on somebody to eject them and then put the boots to them once they were on the sidewalk outside. Some (not all) bouncers Ive dealt with have "issues" regarding ego, attitude and being "tough guys". Now this poor man in no way "asked" or deserved to be stabbed, but physically tossing somebody out for smoking? Isnt a dangerous enough event to warrant the risk IMO...call the police.

http://www.crimedoctor.com/nightclub1.htm

Tom,

I agree it is best to ask and guide them out the door.

But, here in Michigan there is no state Trespass law, and there were no local trespass laws where I worked either. And I almost always called the police first. Yet, almsot always their response time was lacking, as they were busy elsewhere. So, the incident would escalate, and I had just as many issues with the police and ego's. Some, that even told me that I had not seen what
I had seen, as they did not want to do the paper work. Now this is no way a representation of all police officers. You see, most of the time to police would stand there and tell me that I was supposed to just stand by and let the guy beat the woman or the teenage girl. Or I was supposed to stand there while four or more guys beat on a guy already on the ground. I took it as my responcibility to another human being to get involved and possible save a life, then to jsut stand by.

Yet, I agree, in most cases, there are ego's involved with bouncers, and it is best to call the police, and to let others handle it, as the situation is not out of hand. Yet, sometimes, ther are situations, that require action. And to just let you know, I was never arrested, only questioned, so I guess I choose my battles well.

Getting involved with the court system is lengthy and expensive, even if you are innocent and or jsut a witness, or possible suspect. Call the police, give them a chance to react, and respond, and only get involved if it is a life or death or serious bodily harm situation. At least that is my opinion and experience.

 

[Tgace]

Tom,

I agree it is best to ask and guide them out the door.

But, here in Michigan there is no state Trespass law, and there were no local trespass laws where I worked either. And I almost always called the police first. Yet, almsot always their response time was lacking, as they were busy elsewhere. So, the incident would escalate, and I had just as many issues with the police and ego's. Some, that even told me that I had not seen what
I had seen, as they did not want to do the paper work. Now this is no way a representation of all police officers. You see, most of the time to police would stand there and tell me that I was supposed to just stand by and let the guy beat the woman or the teenage girl. Or I was supposed to stand there while four or more guys beat on a guy already on the ground. I took it as my responcibility to another human being to get involved and possible save a life, then to jsut stand by.

Yet, I agree, in most cases, there are ego's involved with bouncers, and it is best to call the police, and to let others handle it, as the situation is not out of hand. Yet, sometimes, ther are situations, that require action. And to just let you know, I was never arrested, only questioned, so I guess I choose my battles well.

Getting involved with the court system is lengthy and expensive, even if you are innocent and or jsut a witness, or possible suspect. Call the police, give them a chance to react, and respond, and only get involved if it is a life or death or serious bodily harm situation. At least that is my opinion and experience.

So we agree? :asian: :ultracool

As to trespass in your state, I found this. Not arguing the fact or anything, just to illustrate what is a common misconception with trespass laws in many states.

http://www.law.umich.edu/library/

• A trespasser is a person who, willfully and without lawful authority, enters upon the property of another, after the owner or occupant, agent or servant of the owner or occupant, forbid the person to enter the property.

• Also, a trespasser is a person on the property of another who, without lawful authority, neglects or refuses to depart from the property after the owner or occupant, the agent or servant of the owner or occupant, notified the person to depart from the property. MCLA 750.552 (Michigan Compiled Laws / Michigan Compiled Laws Annotated).

and

http://www.mlswa.org/TRESPASS.htm

Unfortunately, many police agencies (i.e. county sheriff departments, city police officers, etc.) and prosecuting officials (i.e. county prosecutors, city or township attorneys, the Michigan Attorney General's office, etc.) are reluctant to prosecute trespassers—it is simply not a high priority in most jurisdictions. Many law enforcement officials will tell a complaining property owner that they cannot prosecute a trespasser until the offender trespasses a second time. Although under most laws it is not technically true that someone has to trespass a second time before they can be prosecuted, it is true that most laws require some type of prior notice. For example, MCLA 750.552 requires that the trespass occur after the trespasser has been "forbidden to do so by the owner or occupant" or that the trespasser neglects or refuses to leave when requested by the owner or occupant .

Not much different than in my state. "Sir, leave and dont come back or you will be charged with trespass." If he leaves...good. No paperwork necessary, unless he comes back. If he says "FU" hes arrested (as long as the owner is willing to press the charge). Sounds like the Cops you dealt with either didnt want to make the arrest, or the Bar you worked for just didnt want to file the charge ("Just get him out"). I run into that quite often. People call the police to just eject somebody but they dont want to press any charges because of the "hassle". We arent a bouncer service. If I have to use force to get somebody out of your bar its because Im arresting them. If its not worth the "hassle" of court then i guess the guys actions arent bad enough to kick him out. The same standard you should go by as a bouncer. I would think that if your employer really wanted to press charges, and the offender had refused to leave when told, an arrest could have been "pushed" for. If you get no satisfaction from a patrolman, call for a Sergeant.

Some (note I didnt say all) bars just dont want the police scrutiny because theres stuff going on in the bar thats illegal (Liquor Authority issues, underage patrons, drug dealing etc.) or the bouncers have law problems of their own....note in this case some of the offenders were stated to be linked to members of organized crime.....

 

[Tgace]

Around here, trespass is a great tool to get troublemakers out of stores, bars, movies when there is no other offense going on. People seem to think that stores, movies etc are "public property" and you cant make them leave. They are wrong. If they leave when told...no trespass...if they stay...a ride downtown.

 

[Rich Parsons]

So we agree? :asian: :ultracool

As to trespass in your state, I found this. Not arguing the fact or anything, just to illustrate what is a common misconception with trespass laws in many states.

http://www.law.umich.edu/library/

[/list]and

http://www.mlswa.org/TRESPASS.htm

Not much different than in my state. "Sir, leave and dont come back or you will be charged with trespass." If he leaves...good. No paperwork necessary, unless he comes back. If he says "FU" hes arrested (as long as the owner is willing to press the charge). Sounds like the Cops you dealt with either didnt want to make the arrest, or the Bar you worked for just didnt want to file the charge ("Just get him out"). I run into that quite often. People call the police to just eject somebody but they dont want to press any charges because of the "hassle". We arent a bouncer service. If I have to use force to get somebody out of your bar its because Im arresting them. If its not worth the "hassle" of court then i guess the guys actions arent bad enough to kick him out. The same standard you should go by as a bouncer. I would think that if your employer really wanted to press charges, and the offender had refused to leave when told, an arrest could have been "pushed" for. If you get no satisfaction from a patrolman, call for a Sergeant.

Some (note I didnt say all) bars just dont want the police scrutiny because theres stuff going on in the bar thats illegal (Liquor Authority issues, underage patrons, drug dealing etc.) or the bouncers have law problems of their own....note in this case some of the offenders were stated to be linked to members of organized crime.....

Thanks for the links

When I went looking for them in the 80's and early 90's I could not find such nor could I find a police officer willing to admit that there was or willing to arrest or press charges on such.

 

[Tgace]

Well, an LEO cant exactly "Press Charges" for trespass. The crime didnt happen to him, and in some states (like mine) simple trespass is a violation, not a crime, so the complaintant has to "press charges" i.e. be the complainant on the charge. The first thing I ask when going to these type of calls is "If the guy wont leave will you press trespass charges?"

If the LEO was told "we asked/told this guy to leave and he wouldnt. We want him arrested." The cops can either a. arrest him. or b. Tell the guy to leave and if he does tell the property owner to call if he returns, and then we'll arrest him.

If the patron was an ******* and the owner really desired an arrest and the LEO refused...not to criticize a fellow LEO, and not knowing all the circumstances, all I can say is I would have locked the guy up.

 

[Rich Parsons]

Well, an LEO cant exactly "Press Charges" for trespass. The crime didnt happen to him, and in some states (like mine) simple trespass is a violation, not a crime, so the complaintant has to "press charges" i.e. be the complainant on the charge. The first thing I ask when going to these type of calls is "If the guy wont leave will you press trespass charges?"

If the LEO was told "we asked/told this guy to leave and he wouldnt. We want him arrested." The cops can either a. arrest him. or b. Tell the guy to leave and if he does tell the property owner to call if he returns, and then we'll arrest him.

If the patron was an ******* and the owner really desired an arrest and the LEO refused...not to criticize a fellow LEO, and not knowing all the circumstances, all I can say is I would have locked the guy up.

Good points, and I agree with this approach. But, even when I asked, no one would approach it.

There was a nearby city suburb that actually passed a no loitering law be able to handle this issue in the late 80's. I was working a door there, real easy spot as most of the clients were Jr. High to High school and the adults just wanted to shoot pool and not be bothered. And they were not as if you were not shooting you were not in the pool section. Well this officer, wrote up some tickets, then when he was completed he asked the first kid why he was still there? He pulled out his pen to start writing a second ticket, and of course they all took off.

I apologize for the misspeak of pressing charges. I should have said "I could nto find an officer to take my complaint, which would have allowed for the pressing of charges."

 

[Jerry]

I will agree the knife disarms are usually worthless..

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/02/14/woman.attacked.ap/

 

[TonyM.]

"Well I guess I'll be calling the police now." Patron says whatever "If you're not gone by the time I reach that phone the police will be summoned to remove you for trespassing." Patron leaves quickly, sometimes issuing obscenities and or hollow threats on the way out the door.
This scenario has happened a few times in the 26 years I've been tending bar. For the sake of politeness I won't say what would happen to one of my doormen if they ever manhandled a customer.

 

[Jerry]

It does seem a little odd to me that a business owner or employee is disallowed from using force in order to prevent a crime (trespass). Can you use force to prevent other non-violent crimes (say breaking your door, or crawling behind the bar and drinking everything in site), or must you hope that your establishment isn't very far from an available officer? I can just imagine some little bar or strip club out in the middle of the desert with the nearest cop an hour away.

 

[Tgace]

I dont think anybodies said you can "never" use force. There are always circumstances where you may "have" to act. You always have the right to citizens arrest, but personally I would only do that in a dire extreme due to the legal troubles that frequently result from it.

 

[PragmaticMartialArtist]

Striking first with a knife and then running is not art. This is martial meaning fighting or war but anyone can use a knife. Should Wardens in prison be responsible for the knife work that goes on in prison because the warden does not intervene? Watch some clips or read articles on prison. The hardcore practice basic effective killing techniques based on the first strike. Martial yes, art no.

 

[Jerry]

If it's not an art, then it's a science... though really I think your are showing too much concern over semantics.

Should Wardens in prison be responsible for the knife work that goes on in prison because the warden does not intervene?

If they fail to put in a compitent and good-faith effort; yes. Part of a warden's job in to ensure the security and safety of the prison facility. This includes protecting the rights (such as the right to life, and the protection from assault) of the inmates, as well as upholding the proscription from weapon ownership.

 

[PragmaticMartialArtist]

I agree.