knife on the ground

[lonecoyote]

Most of the clips of knife arts I've seen involve stand up fighting. Does anyone do any groundwork with the knife, perhaps involving accessing your knife while having someone in the guard, being under the mount, or any kind of flow or trap work on the ground? How about how to fight on the ground against someone you've taken down who comes up with a knife?

 

[MA-Caver]

Heh, I've found some of my best (knife) work is on the ground. Got into a tussel with someone and I ended up pinning him and his knife against his cheek... stopped the fight reeeally quick it did.
But all that wrasslin on the ground makes for very dangerous situations and for those who do train with edged weapons should certianly train while prone on the ground with someone else trying to pin or whatever on you. Pardon the pun but it's a dual edged sword ground fighting with a knife/blade.

 

[Andrew Green]

I find that if someone has a knife I'm safer if I can get them on the ground. More control.

Control the weapon hand, make them let go of it, that's basically how it goes.

As for pulling a knife when you are on the ground, be careful about when you do it. If you do it when the other guy is in a control position and he sees you do it... well, you probably just "donated" a knife to him.

But the absolute worst thing you can do is take the word of some guy on the internet, a better bet would be getting some training knives and doing some sparring... ok, a lot of sparring

 

[arnisador]

I find that if someone has a knife I'm safer if I can get them on the ground.

 

[Cryozombie]

I find that if someone has a knife I'm safer if I can get them on the ground.

I find that if someone has a knife i am safer if I can get them on the ground while I run 15 feet away from them...

 

[kroh]

See angry guy with knife...

Position automobile or mack truck in between me and said Whacko ( this is a technical term for knife wielding assailant )
*Pull Firearm
*Put Whacko on ground with said firearm
*Call Police and tell them some WHacko tried to steal my knife so I shot him.
*Wait for Police and mass media coverage

Or something to that effect...

Wrestling with any type of sharp object is dangerous. I have some friends in the Suio Ryu who train grappling while wearing short swords ( wakizashi ). Now that is good clean fun.

Any time you add a blade to a ground fight you are asking for a one dead and one wounded scenario. There will always be exceptions but that type of training is something that should be done to familliarize the students with the dangers associated with "knife wrestling."

If a knife fight goes to the ground...I would rather some one else be involved...

Regards,
Walt

 

[Andrew Green]

Of course, running away is always safer, but that doesn't make for fun training

Square off, instructor says "Go!" and both fighters turn and run...

But given the choice of standing up and trying to hit the guy, or taking him down, I'll take the takedown if I can, easier to control the guy, and more importantly his weapon hand...

Hard part is getting in and getting him down safely, for that you need basically a 2 on 1 and that is usually where we get hit, once that is established things seem to go better... in that we don't get cut as often...

 

[lonecoyote]

I'm not saying it's a great idea to go and do knife stuff on the ground, just saying it can happen, it's a situation that has happened to others before and could happen again, and so it might be a good idea to train for it. Having a big guy mounted, pounding me to death is one of the few situations where I actually would draw my knife. Are any of the stand up flow drills applicable to the ground?

 

[Flatlander]

I would say they're applicable insofar as they will make sense in the right context. For example, one person sitting on the other's chest. The two involved would need to be in some position that allows them to be able to execute the drill.

We do some of the cutting patterns and forms while lying on the ground, getting up from the ground, etc. - basically more about working on finding good positioning and balance while transitioning to and from the ground, but, that's solitary work, and not really what I think you're talking about.

I'd say, once you hit the ground in training, you're probably going to find more value out of a spar situation than a drill situation. Do the majority of your drilling standing up, and you'll work the sensitivity, flow, disarming and destruction type of training. The skills should manifest on the ground when you get into a spar.

That's my take on it, but I'm no teacher.....:asian:

 

[Andrew Green]

Nah, knife drills are important on the ground too, gotta learn to effectively isolate and control that weapon.

You also got to drill taking them down safely, and retaining control when you hit the ground.

 

[Loki]

I find that if someone has a knife I'm safer if I can get them on the ground. More control.

*Another mouth drops open*

Safer on the ground with a knife? How? What gives you more control?

It may be important to drill, but I certainly wouldn't call it a desireable situation. You have much less maneuverability and the knife is perilously close to you. I'd like to hear a more thorough explanation of why ground work against a knife is safer.

 

[Flatlander]

Nah, knife drills are important on the ground too, gotta learn to effectively isolate and control that weapon.

And which drills are those? Would you run us through your groundwork knife drills?

 

[Andrew Green]

Safer on the ground with a knife? How? What gives you more control?

On the ground there is almost always someone with more control then the other person. If I am mounted on you, I have more control then you.

Standing and seperated you are free to move in any way you like, and have many options available at any given time. On the ground you will only have a few, or if things are going my way, none. It is more predictable in a sense.

Of course if someone has a knife, and has a dominate position you're going to be bleeding a lot... But if you can dominate you will be a lot safer then you would on your feet.

 

[Andrew Green]

And which drills are those? Would you run us through your groundwork knife drills?

Kinda hard to put drills into words, especially when we might have different language regarding what we are doing...

But, for starters:

Everything starts with a takedown, and that has to be a takedown that doesn't get you needing stiches. My preference is to enter into a 2 on 1, either side of the arm. Lock the wrist down and control the shoulder of the weapon arm.

From there you got to take the guy down, without loosing control of the weapon arm.

If you achieve that the hardest part is over. Depending on what you did to toss him he may already have lost the weapon, but don't count on that...

Now you need to either completely imobolise the arm in a way that you can still attack, or attack the arm. Wrist locks, chicken wings, keylocks.... not likely straight arm bars or bicep splices, but it all depends on what you did to take the guy down.

If you want to look at when someone pulls a knife on you when you are already on the ground, that's a different issue.

If he is in a dominate position, you are already loosing, and if he has a weapon and you are already loosing... well, it's just not gonna be your day is it?

If you are winning, the guys is in trouble, chances of him being able to pull out a concealed knife (and likely have to open it up) smoothly and without you (the guy punching him in the face) knowing about it is not that good.

But give it a try, get a training blade, have your partner conceal it, choose a starting position and go. Once he starts going for it get control of that arm and don't let him use it, get it away.

Or, do it wear you know he has a knife, stick it in his belt or pocket and don't let him get it. He tries too.

Simple drills, and if you don't have a good knowledge of grappling they won't be of any good, that has to be there first.

 

[Cruentus]

Most of the clips of knife arts I've seen involve stand up fighting. Does anyone do any groundwork with the knife, perhaps involving accessing your knife while having someone in the guard, being under the mount, or any kind of flow or trap work on the ground? How about how to fight on the ground against someone you've taken down who comes up with a knife?

Knife work on the ground is very important to train, because ending up on the ground is a reality in combat, regardless of your environment.

Paul

 

[tradrockrat]

Knives suck. They hurt too. Run away or bring superior firepower.






Having said that, much of what I train to deal with a knife involves either disarming him standing, or taking him to the ground. I believe this is what Mr. Green is refering to. If you can't run away, and you need to control an attacker, you will have to grapple (this is assuming a quick attempt to disarm from a distance doesn't work). At that point, if you are serious winning the fight you will do whatever it is you feel you do best. If that is throwing, you'll throw, if it's ground fighting you'll do that. I prefer isolating the knife hand and "guiding" my opponent to the ground - hard. At least it's worked before.

EDIT: Forgot - nothing will work if you don't train it and spar. Use a partner and practice.

 

[Flatlander]

Kinda hard to put drills into words, especially when we might have different language regarding what we are doing...

What you seem to be describing here sounds to me like what I would define as a type of spar. In referring to drills, I meant a repetitive, predictable sequence of movements which allows both (or all 3, or whatever) partners to get a better sense of the flow of the situation, and build a little muscle memory. I apologize if we have miscommunicated here. However, I agree completely: much benefit and learning will take place by just grabbing some training blades and rolling. I also agree that a good foundation in grappling will go a long way to developing your knifework on the ground.

But, as I said previously, I haven't seen a lot of drills that are applicable to ground work specifically, rather, the drilling that I've done could be executed on the ground, but in a limited context.

 

[shesulsa]

What you seem to be describing here sounds to me like what I would define as a type of spar. In referring to drills, I meant a repetitive, predictable sequence of movements which allows both (or all 3, or whatever) partners to get a better sense of the flow of the situation, and build a little muscle memory. I apologize if we have miscommunicated here. However, I agree completely: much benefit and learning will take place by just grabbing some training blades and rolling. I also agree that a good foundation in grappling will go a long way to developing your knifework on the ground.

But, as I said previously, I haven't seen a lot of drills that are applicable to ground work specifically, rather, the drilling that I've done could be executed on the ground, but in a limited context.

Drill techniques on the ground with a practice knife. When we're talking knife fighting, it's the same as all fighting; each person will have their own skill level and set. Some will flail and it will be hard to control their weapon arm. Others will be precise and strong.

Hmmm ... grappling with a knife ... sounds educational.

 

[Knarfan]

Nah, knife drills are important on the ground too, gotta learn to effectively isolate and control that weapon.

You also got to drill taking them down safely, and retaining control when you hit the ground.

Great point!
I know that it sounds strange to most people but Andrew brings up some great points about training for ground fighting senarios. I don't think that he is saying if somone pulls a knife on you take them down but, in some situations that may not be a bad stratagy. In Sayoc Kali we train our drills & freefighting for any possible position that you could find yourself in. In a fight you may not be the one who decides where the fight ends up. I myself have a decent grappling background & I am pretty good on the ground, with or without the blade. Of course it's going to be dangerous, knives are dangerous. IMO you should prepare for everything. Check out the May 2005 issue of black belt mag. "Anatomy of a knife fight" by knife designer Ernest Emerson. He believes that the ground may be your best option. It's an interesting article. He touches on alot of the points that Andrew brings up.

 

[arnisandyz]

When the Sayoc clan used to come down to Florida for thier SamaSamas Tom Kier did a nice demo of some of the knife templates on the ground, very eye opening!