Knife Myths

[Ediaan]

I am not saying that training with your knife as if the other had one is invalid, my point was usually the first thing the person attacked knows of the knife is it has cut or stabbed them!
Most knife attackers do not stand there and show you they have a blade! they hide it and then use it, and make it as much an ambush as possible. that is the myth I was addressing, the idea that you would know the knife was involved from the start.

This rings true, here in South Africa, we have heard and witnessed individuals being stabbed and afterwards they did not see their attacker, before or after the stabbing took place.

Someone who whips out a blade and starts waving it around like in the movies, knows almost nothing about knife fighting.
Don't get me wrong, anyone with a knife is dangerous, but the most dangerous ones are the thugs who walk casually past you, stab you in the neck and walk on like nothing happened - and you will be none the wiser.

We learn knife fighting against other knife fighters, but true stabbers will not even let you see that they have a knife.

 

[Cyriacus]

We learn knife fighting against other knife fighters, but true stabbers will not even let you see that they have a knife.

Aye.
That relates to more than just stabbing - Thats the difference between a fight and an attack. Knives just make it a whole lot faster for the assaulter

 

[Ediaan]

Aye.
That relates to more than just stabbing - Thats the difference between a fight and an attack. Knives just make it a whole lot faster for the assaulter

And much more dangerous, in true knife combat one person goes to morgue and the other one to hospital. I've read somewhere that statistics show that in about 90% of all knife fights both fighters usually succumb from their injuries.

It's such a devastating weapon and should really only be used as a last resort.

 

[Mark Jacobs]

I see this thread, which started out as a discussion of an article I wrote two or three years ago, is still going strong. Too bad I can’t get royalties out of this.

Just to address some of the points people have brought up since the last time I responded: First, I don’t believe there’s really a lot of hard empirical evidence about knife fighting - at least from people with direct experience fighting against knives - out there, anywhere. Which was sort of the point of my original article - that I went to a medical expert who did at least have direct experience in what a knife does to people as opposed to the theoretical experience of martial artists.

Second, someone previously mentioned Marc MacYoung and while I have never discussed this topic directly with him, I do seem to recall reading his insights on the subject. I believe he said he has been attacked a few times by knives but only once was he ever able to draw his own knife (a sheath knife I think) which is not encouraging to people who think they can whip out their own blade and turn a knife attack into a duel. From talking with people who have a lot of experience over in the Phillippines, the whole “dueling” thing, at least among FMA masters, seems highly overrated. I don’t know of anyone who’s ever actually witnessed any of these masters in a duel. And even one or two experiences with something like that is not enough to make hard empirical judgments on what works and doesn’t work. For that you need dozens of “trial experiments” which just doesn’t happen nowadays with blade vs. blade combat (even in the Phillippines or Africa, there are often enough guns around that you can still just get one and shoot the guy if you want to kill him bad enough, rather than engage in a duel). And anyone who’s fought empty handed against a knife dozens of times... well, they’ve probably been killed already.

When I interviewed Leo Gaje recently, who is probably as hardcore as you can get in regards to knife fighting, I asked him about the stories of him riding a subway train in NY in the 1970s with money hanging out of his pocket hoping to get mugged so he could practice his techniques. He said it was true but then said no one ever actually tried to mug him so even there, he didn’t get a chance to test his techniques in real life. Perhaps he had some other experiences back in the Phillippines but dozens of knife fighting encounters just don’t seem probable to me.

Possibly, the only place you’re going to find people with that sort of experience are among duelists from hundreds of years ago. Musashi supposedly engaged in 60 duels, though I’m told by Meik Skoss, one of the leading authorities on classical kenjutsu, that most of those were likely done with wooden swords used by both parties. Richard Cohen, in his book By the Sword, did mention a French nobleman, the Chevalier D’Andreux, who allegedly killed 72 men in duels by the time he was 30 years old (supposedly, another cocky young nobleman, who didn’t know D’Andreux’s reputation, challenged him to a duel saying something like “You’ll be the 14th man I’ve killed in a duel” to which D’Andreux replied with something like, “Oh yeah? You’ll be my 73rd,”... and he was.) But I don’t know how reliable that information was as I’m told there were certain inaccuracies in Cohen’s book. In any case, that was certainly a different time and a different culture. Also, they were using swords not knives. With a knife, or even a machete, you have to get a lot closer which means it’s going to be a lot more difficult to avoid getting cut. On the rare occasions you do see people dueling each other with those sort of weapons, both parties generally seem too leery to get close enough to do serious damage. Again, I can’t see too many people dueling a whole lot of times with knives. And anyone who has doesn’t seem to be talking about it much so there just isn’t that much evidence to go on.

Even with swords, while you hear about Musashi and D’Andreux (assuming they actually did have multiple duels with real blades) you may simply be hearing about the exceptions, the rare guys who were willing to engage in duels and who were successful. And it’s possible they were exceptions because they were simply bigger and stronger than all the guys they killed. In Musashi’s Go Rin No Sho (if you believe it’s an accurate autobiography) he even says he didn’t win because of his skill, that it was probably his athleticism or just bad opponents.

I agree with what’s been said above about many knife attacks being more ambush than fair fight and with others turning into asymmetrical battles. One thing I’ve heard MacYoung recommend, which I’ve both seen and heard of from others as being effective, is simply throwing things at a knife wielding attacker to make them keep back. But again, unless you’ve done any of these things many times, or at least seen them done many times, we’re really going on guesswork here about what’s effective.

Also thought I would mention that the issue of Black Belt magazine which just came out finally has my story on pekiti tirsia kali expert Bill McGrath, for those who are interested (not sure what’s on the cover but it’s supposed to be in there under my Far East column).

 

[Chris Parker]

Possibly, the only place you’re going to find people with that sort of experience are among duelists from hundreds of years ago. Musashi supposedly engaged in 60 duels, though I’m told by Meik Skoss, one of the leading authorities on classical kenjutsu, that most of those were likely done with wooden swords used by both parties. Richard Cohen, in his book By the Sword, did mention a French nobleman, the Chevalier D’Andreux, who allegedly killed 72 men in duels by the time he was 30 years old (supposedly, another cocky young nobleman, who didn’t know D’Andreux’s reputation, challenged him to a duel saying something like “You’ll be the 14th man I’ve killed in a duel” to which D’Andreux replied with something like, “Oh yeah? You’ll be my 73rd,”... and he was.) But I don’t know how reliable that information was as I’m told there were certain inaccuracies in Cohen’s book. In any case, that was certainly a different time and a different culture. Also, they were using swords not knives. With a knife, or even a machete, you have to get a lot closer which means it’s going to be a lot more difficult to avoid getting cut. On the rare occasions you do see people dueling each other with those sort of weapons, both parties generally seem too leery to get close enough to do serious damage. Again, I can’t see too many people dueling a whole lot of times with knives. And anyone who has doesn’t seem to be talking about it much so there just isn’t that much evidence to go on.

Even with swords, while you hear about Musashi and D’Andreux (assuming they actually did have multiple duels with real blades) you may simply be hearing about the exceptions, the rare guys who were willing to engage in duels and who were successful. And it’s possible they were exceptions because they were simply bigger and stronger than all the guys they killed. In Musashi’s Go Rin No Sho (if you believe it’s an accurate autobiography) he even says he didn’t win because of his skill, that it was probably his athleticism or just bad opponents.

Just to clarify here, Meik is an authority on his systems, not on all Japanese sword, nor on Musashi, or his history. That really does need to be stated. And, as far as Musashi engaging in duels with steel or friendly matches with wooden items, it should be noted that strikes with wooden items can be rather lethal in and of themselves (there are records of other kenjutsu-ka, as well as Musashi, using bokken or similar in duels, to lethal effect). But, it should also be recognized that a large proportion of his duels were with steel, and did result in the death of his opponents. Exact numbers are a little harder to come by, but the early part of his career were dominantly using steel, according to his history.

When it comes to dueling (and the records of them) being the exception, I'd be less likely to think that, depending on when (and where) you're talking about... there was a time in Europe that about a third of the noblemen were being killed in duels... you weren't considered a true gentleman unless you'd engaged in at least one duel, preferably having killed your opponent (again, though, depending on the form of duel, it might just be to the first injury, or any agreed upon situation).

Oh, and the comments about Musashi's success don't attribute his survival to badly skilled opponents (he actually states that he wasn't necessarily more skilled than they were, indicating that they weren't "worse" swordsmen), nor to his athleticism. In fact, he attributes it to his attitude towards combat, the willingness to engage, even at the risk or loss of his own life, without holding back. That, combined with his natural physical attributes (being a fair bit taller/larger than most Japanese), and his natural understanding of strategy, lead to his success.