Knife Defense: Best strategies in your opinion?

[Tez3]

Chris, my answer was a generalised one to a very generalised question, well not even a question. The OP was expecting flash bang wallop techniques to do such as kicking the knife out of the attackers hand with a roundhouse kick, very easily done of course....in films. The basic premise of my answer was that you should not be fighting if you can at all help it, each situation is different. The OP didn't want anything sensible, I could have said ride away on a tiger and he'd have been happy with that though. The 'run away' point was just a point about not fighting is possible. I considered it useless to elaborate without something from the OP that would give us a clue on a situation we could actually comment on. Other's have presumably more patience than I

 

[mook jong man]

To be fair, Ray has stated that no-one has been able to parry those shots… of course, he also freely admits that it's really not much more than a parlour trick he uses for seminars… illustrating a point, obviously, but not quite what it appears to be presented as…

Dont really know about being a parlour trick he uses for seminars , he does the same thing in sparring from an even greater distance.
He is just really fast and does not telegraph , he also uses certain deceptive tactics that make you think he is going to go high but then he goes low , and vice versa.

Granted , your average knifer out on the street is not going to have his skills , but I think that a lot of martial artists really under estimate the distance or the reactionary gap needed , to be able to have a chance of defending against the knife.

 

[Chris Parker]

Chris, my answer was a generalised one to a very generalised question, well not even a question. The OP was expecting flash bang wallop techniques to do such as kicking the knife out of the attackers hand with a roundhouse kick, very easily done of course....in films. The basic premise of my answer was that you should not be fighting if you can at all help it, each situation is different. The OP didn't want anything sensible, I could have said ride away on a tiger and he'd have been happy with that though. The 'run away' point was just a point about not fighting is possible. I considered it useless to elaborate without something from the OP that would give us a clue on a situation we could actually comment on. Other's have presumably more patience than I

Hey, Irene,

Yeah, I got that… but felt I'd take the opportunity to flesh out a bit of RTKDCMB's answer at the same time… and agree completely on not giving the OP much in the way of detailed answers… which is why I waited until he was banned before I added to it… ha!

Dont really know about being a parlour trick he uses for seminars , he does the same thing in sparring from an even greater distance.
He is just really fast and does not telegraph , he also uses certain deceptive tactics that make you think he is going to go high but then he goes low , and vice versa.

Granted , your average knifer out on the street is not going to have his skills , but I think that a lot of martial artists really under estimate the distance or the reactionary gap needed , to be able to have a chance of defending against the knife.

Ha, yeah, Ray is damn good, there's no doubt about that… those "deceptive tactics" you mention are part of the "parlour trick" idea… I mean, even the idea of knife sparring isn't realistic… which Ray knows well… it's another part of the show for him.

None of this is taking anything away from Ray… to the contrary, the guys great at what he does… just highlighting that things can be set up to give a particular impression that might not be as realistic as they appear… in both positive and negative ways. I like the way Ray uses that particular trick, actually… it's designed to remove a sense of safety that people sometimes come into his classes/seminars with… getting them to need to reassess what they think they can actually get away with.

 

[Tgace]

If you can't flee and don't have a weapon of your own...IMO your best option of no good options is to trap the arm (taking whatever cut or stab that results in) and get to work with whatever techniques you have been trained with.

IMO the idea of dancing around avoiding the blade just results in a prolonged stabfest till you go down. Of course many real word knife attacks are "attacks" and not dancing around duels.

 

[Badger1777]

Hi Badger,

I know it can be rather easy, when in a set training exercise, to say that someone only has success because they know what's coming, but in reality they wouldn't, but that's only a part of it… what has to be remembered is that you were (at that point) learning a particular technical method… a mechanical application… the other student was trying to employ the technique correctly, not because they were trying to defend against a knife, but because they were trying to learn that technique. As a result, they were looking for that particular attack… and looking to use a particular movement in response. Sure, ideally, a different attack would be noted before impact (I don't know how experienced your partner at the time was), but the mentality (and expectation) in that context shouldn't be overlooked… nor mistaken for something that might happen in "real life". In a real encounter, your partner would (hopefully!) not be looking for a single, particular attack… they'd be watching to see what came in first… and respond with something appropriate to that. In the class, he would simply have been looking to use the technique he was learning… so that, if he had to rely on it, he would have tested and trained it already. There is, as you can tell, a big difference between training a specific technique, and training an unannounced response… getting them mixed up can lead to misunderstanding the viability of both training methods.

I get that, but that's not really the point I was trying to make. The point is, in class we learn all these really cool techniques. We practice and practice them until we have them pretty much perfect. We get promoted through the grades to prove that we've mastered these and other techniques, and can apply them in a combat situation in the very strictly controlled environment of the club, then we pat ourselves on the back and tell ourselves what skilled fighters we are. Then if we happen to be a bit young or naive or have led a sheltered life where our ONLY experience of fighting is in the club environment, then we have a problem. A false sense of security that has the potential to get us killed in the first real encounter we have, a real encounter we might otherwise have run away from as fast as possible had we not placed all our faith in our martial arts training.

I proved this point against the same lad in training. He asked me to take the dagger in both hands and stab towards his head. I said "but everyone can defend against that". He laughed, and said sarcastically "oh really?", and offered me the chance to prove my point. So he held the dagger up ready to stab me, and I rushed him, grabbed both arms, right leg behind his leg, and twist. He went flying. I held him because I didn't intend to really hurt him but had I followed through, he would have have hit the ground very hard, and I would have also fallen with him but in a controlled way, whereby I use his belly as a cushion for my knee as we land. He wasn't waiting for a textbook response from me that time because he didn't know what I had in mind. Perhaps he thought he did know what I had in mind, and that is another hazard of placing all your faith in martial arts. People who've been around a while tend to know that things don't go according to any plan, but people without real world experience have no experience to draw upon except what they get from the controlled conditions of the club.

 

[Buka]

I'll run, drawing my weapon as I do so, which I've practiced a lot, and shoot. If I'm not carrying a firearm, I'll draw my blade, probably running for a bit as I do so. If I'm not carrying anything, I'm probably in the back yard. If someone pulls a knife on me there, I'm probably going to get cut.

I have no idea how to disarm a knife barehanded. I've been training in knife fighting for over ten years, been in MA a lot longer, but I still don't know. Knives still scare me way more than guns.

 

[K-man]

If you can't flee and don't have a weapon of your own...IMO your best option of no good options is to trap the arm (taking whatever cut or stab that results in) and get to work with whatever techniques you have been trained with.

IMO the idea of dancing around avoiding the blade just results in a prolonged stabfest till you go down. Of course many real word knife attacks are "attacks" and not dancing around duels.

Trapping the arm is fine in theory but only really works well against a committed thrust or slash, which is what you see most people training. Once the attacker uses 'slice and dice' or multiple thrusts, especially with the knife in the rear hand the dynamic changes significantly. There is obviously no right or wrong, but if you just rush in and try to grab I reckon the chances of getting cut are higher that if you can get some avoidance and deflection until the opportunity arises to get control of the arm. Certainly the chances of taking a cut or stab are high regardless of the option you choose.

Of course the other option is using a kick or a series of low kicks.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LUo00gU_Q_E
Can't find a video of the multiple kick defence.
:asian:

 

[Tgace]

Trapping the arm is fine in theory but only really works well against a committed thrust or slash, which is what you see most people training. Once the attacker uses 'slice and dice' or multiple thrusts, especially with the knife in the rear hand the dynamic changes significantly. There is obviously no right or wrong, but if you just rush in and try to grab I reckon the chances of getting cut are higher that if you can get some avoidance and deflection until the opportunity arises to get control of the arm. Certainly the chances of taking a cut or stab are high regardless of the option you choose.

Of course the other option is using a kick or a series of low kicks.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LUo00gU_Q_E
Can't find a video of the multiple kick defence.
:asian:

That's assuming that you know that the other guy has a knife as well...IMO many knife attack victims are not even going to know they are being stabbed. The dojo meme is typically the "bad guy" brandishing a blade then attacks. If someone "brandishes" a knife IMO that's an invitation to run away. The real "Im ****ed" moment is when the other guy seems like he's swinging punches or GNPing you, and at some point you see the knife in his had. My .02... If you have already been stabbed and cut, disengaging is only gonna mean more stabbing unless you can flee or get your own weapon in play. I believe you have better odds of controlling the weapon hand than you do depending on punches/strikes to end it. In my experience most of the FMA disarms I ever worked seemed at least somewhat probable while grappling over the weapon vs trying to "slap/twist" the blade away while the other guy is slashing away at you.

Any defense against a blade is an exercise of "do or die" anyway. Any option is going to be a bad one, but you have to try something.

 

[K-man]

That's assuming that you know that the other guy has a knife as well...IMO many knife attack victims are not even going to know they are being stabbed. The dojo meme is typically the "bad guy" brandishing a blade then attacks. If someone "brandishes" a knife IMO that's an invitation to run away. The real "Im ****ed" moment is when the other guy seems like he's swinging punches or GNPing you, and at some point you see the knife in his had. My .02... If you have already been stabbed and cut, disengaging is only gonna mean more stabbing unless you can flee or get your own weapon in play. I believe you have better odds of controlling the weapon hand than you do depending on punches/strikes to end it. In my experience most of the FMA disarms I ever worked seemed at least somewhat probable while grappling over the weapon vs trying to "slap/twist" the blade away while the other guy is slashing away at you.

Any defense against a blade is an exercise of "do or die" anyway. Any option is going to be a bad one, but you have to try something.

Agree totally. If you are already engaged you can't disengage. Strikes also are more or less essential, but not in isolation and normally only after the arm is controlled. Actually it brings to mind one training session we did years ago where we were taught to react immediately, if one hand disappears behind the back. to trap that arm.
:asian:

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

Sound advice both Tgace and K-man. Tough to deal with a blade. Really tough and I do not wish it on anyone. Yet, in the moment you gotta do what you gotta do and that is light up that person and gain control if you can. If you are able to disengage and bring a weapon/tool of your own to bear all the better! No one and I repeat no one wants to be dealing with a blade empty handed. The odds are just not in your favor!!

 

[Badger1777]

Sound advice both Tgace and K-man. Tough to deal with a blade. Really tough and I do not wish it on anyone. Yet, in the moment you gotta do what you gotta do and that is light up that person and gain control if you can. If you are able to disengage and bring a weapon/tool of your own to bear all the better! No one and I repeat no one wants to be dealing with a blade empty handed. The odds are just not in your favor!!

I'm not sure I agree with the idea that being unarmed against someone who is armed is necessarily worse than if you are both armed.

The way I see it (and this is from experience) is that if you are armed, there is a risk that you will be disarmed, and then your assailant will become armed with your weapon. In our club we are taught exactly that scenario, but also I've seen it first hand in the sickeningly real situation of the drunken brawl, which is quite possibly the most likely scenario that these issues become relevant.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

I would never want to be unarmed in a life or death situation and considering that I carry 24/7 there is little chance that I will not have some tool to bring to bear in a violent conflict if needed. If your unarmed versus the a knife you are in dire straights regardless of how good you are or how long you have practiced. This does not mean that you cannot survive and or even disarm the other person but if you have the choice of having a force multiplier (ie. weapon/tool) and you do not bring it to bear that is really bad strategy. Having a weapon/tool helps to equalize a situation and or make it better in your favor. Ie. someone pulls a knife you disengage and pull a firearm. Even if you disengage and manage to deploy a knife that helps you immensely.

I am also not worried about being disarmed and then my opponent utilizing the tool against me. First off it probably will not happen due to my skill set. Yet, even if I had no skills it would be very difficult for someone to disarm me as I am naturally athletic. The real reality though is that disarms are very difficult against any tool. Disarms against the knife even more difficult. If someone is teaching you not to have and or utilize tools for your personal protection then I think you might want to rethink your personal protection skill set and or find a new instructor. We humans are tool users and it is a big advantage to utilize a tool in a violent conflict! Big advantage!

 

[Badger1777]

I would never want to be unarmed in a life or death situation and considering that I carry 24/7 there is little chance that I will not have some tool to bring to bear in a violent conflict if needed. If your unarmed versus the a knife you are in dire straights regardless of how good you are or how long you have practiced. This does not mean that you cannot survive and or even disarm the other person but if you have the choice of having a force multiplier (ie. weapon/tool) and you do not bring it to bear that is really bad strategy. Having a weapon/tool helps to equalize a situation and or make it better in your favor. Ie. someone pulls a knife you disengage and pull a firearm. Even if you disengage and manage to deploy a knife that helps you immensely.

I am also not worried about being disarmed and then my opponent utilizing the tool against me. First off it probably will not happen due to my skill set. Yet, even if I had no skills it would be very difficult for someone to disarm me as I am naturally athletic. The real reality though is that disarms are very difficult against any tool. Disarms against the knife even more difficult. If someone is teaching you not to have and or utilize tools for your personal protection then I think you might want to rethink your personal protection skill set and or find a new instructor. We humans are tool users and it is a big advantage to utilize a tool in a violent conflict! Big advantage!

If we adopt the mentality that we should carry a weapon for self defence, then those that would attack us will just carry a better weapon, because they know there's a chance their intended victim will bring a weapon to bear on them. So what do you do? Bring a better weapon? So then your would be attacker needs to make sure he is prepared for that. The attacker is always more prepared than the victim (generally speaking) by virtue of the fact that he knows he intends to be in a hostile encounter, while his victim generally assumes peace. So where does it end? With assault rifles? Sub machine guns? There's more than enough recent history to show how that pans out.

 

[Tgace]

If we adopt the mentality that we should carry a weapon for self defence, then those that would attack us will just carry a better weapon, because they know there's a chance their intended victim will bring a weapon to bear on them. So what do you do? Bring a better weapon? So then your would be attacker needs to make sure he is prepared for that. The attacker is always more prepared than the victim (generally speaking) by virtue of the fact that he knows he intends to be in a hostile encounter, while his victim generally assumes peace. So where does it end? With assault rifles? Sub machine guns? There's more than enough recent history to show how that pans out.

Seriously?

Hope you enjoy being a victim to someone with a weapon. All martial arts fantasies aside...a committed untrained attacker with a weapon can kill you more often than not.

 

[Badger1777]

Seriously?

Hope you enjoy being a victim to someone with a weapon. All martial arts fantasies aside...a committed untrained attacker with a weapon can kill you more often than not.

Yes seriously. Look at the statistics. Of all the developed nations in the world, the one with the highest murder rate also happens to be the one with the most liberal gun laws. I'm not going to continue with this discussion on these lines. I've expressed my opinion and explained it. I have very strong views on this which many, especially in the US, will disagree strongly with. I've had the debate many times on many forums and in the interests of peace and mutual respect, I'm not going to have it again here. All I'll say is either accept my opinion as valid input, disregard it silently, or look at the statistics.

 

[jks9199]

If we adopt the mentality that we should carry a weapon for self defence, then those that would attack us will just carry a better weapon, because they know there's a chance their intended victim will bring a weapon to bear on them. So what do you do? Bring a better weapon? So then your would be attacker needs to make sure he is prepared for that. The attacker is always more prepared than the victim (generally speaking) by virtue of the fact that he knows he intends to be in a hostile encounter, while his victim generally assumes peace. So where does it end? With assault rifles? Sub machine guns? There's more than enough recent history to show how that pans out.

Start from a reality: we're poorly designed in terms of natural weapons. Our "claws" are a joke, and break all too easily. Our teeth aren't set up for predation. We're not nearly as strong as many animals. We're not well protected naturally; our throats and eyes are vulnerable, our two-legged posture begs to be knocked over...

But our brains! That's what's made us THE apex predator of our planet. Sharks have bigger, badder teeth -- but we have spears and spear guns and more. Tigers are stronger and faster -- but we have spears and guns. So accept that you're a tool user -- and if you sincerely want to defend yourself, learn to use tools to do it. You wouldn't try to dig a field of corn with your bare hands unless you had no other choice, right? Why would you defend yourself with only your hands/feet if you had another choice?

Sure, someone can always carry a bigger, better weapon -- but someone (or something) out there is always bigger and stronger, or faster, or more deceptive, too. Go down that path too far, and you'll curl up and hide under a rock.

 

[Tgace]

[video=youtube_share;U2iiPpcwfCA]http://youtu.be/U2iiPpcwfCA[/video]

 

[Tgace]

The philosophy that "I would prefer to face a knifer without a weapon because I don't believe in weapons" is...well.....

 

[Badger1777]

Start from a reality: we're poorly designed in terms of natural weapons. Our "claws" are a joke, and break all too easily. Our teeth aren't set up for predation. We're not nearly as strong as many animals. We're not well protected naturally; our throats and eyes are vulnerable, our two-legged posture begs to be knocked over...

But our brains! That's what's made us THE apex predator of our planet. Sharks have bigger, badder teeth -- but we have spears and spear guns and more. Tigers are stronger and faster -- but we have spears and guns. So accept that you're a tool user -- and if you sincerely want to defend yourself, learn to use tools to do it. You wouldn't try to dig a field of corn with your bare hands unless you had no other choice, right? Why would you defend yourself with only your hands/feet if you had another choice?

Sure, someone can always carry a bigger, better weapon -- but someone (or something) out there is always bigger and stronger, or faster, or more deceptive, too. Go down that path too far, and you'll curl up and hide under a rock.

But for the most part we've evolved beyond. The animals you mention routinely and regularly kill each other. If it wasn't for that superior brain you mention, humans would also still routinely kill each other. In fact we still do, but for the most part its organised and for some excuse. I've never killed a rival male over a potential mate, or killed a rival over food. I've never attacked and killed someone for walking too close to my house, or stepping too close to one of my kids. That's because I belong to species that has evolved significantly further than your tiger or shark.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

We humans have evolved with a big brain and we utilize tools every day to prey upon those weaker than us. You or I may not be preying upon anyone. However, there are a good number of
predators in our society that are preying on people and guess what they are quite often utilizing weapons to do so. Our species "homo sapiens" is the most violent on the planet. We kill for food, fun, to impress, gain advantage, improve our position, defense, protect our homeland, because of a mental disorder, etc. We currently have armed conflicts going on all over the planet. In comparison to animals who kill for food, mating, defense. they kill for a lot less reasons. We do a lot more killing than them for a much larger variety of various reasons. We have not evolved beyond killing! Just look at the news any day of the week and it is easy to see!