Kindergartner arested

[Empty Hands]

Maybe if more people treated cops with respect, instead of as the enemy, there wouldn't be as many cops with the type of attitude your illustrating.

You have got to be ******** me. Cops have severe institutional problems, such as the Abner Louima case tellner recalled for us. In response, we are supposed to extend respect. WTF? Maybe they should clean up their institutional problems before we are supposed to love them again. As it is, your advice reads like telling a battered wife she should love her husband more and avoid making him angry so he won't beat her any more.

I am sure that many, and even most, LEO's on this board or elsewhere are basically decent people. The problem is that cops are extended an enormous amount of power, and they use that power as well as the goodwill of the privileged in our society to shield themselves from the consequences of when they abuse or go beyond their power. Power without accountability is a huge problem even for a "good" individual. No cop, especially the "good" ones you remind us of, should object to accountability - yet most do, if not in word, then in practice.

 

[Empty Hands]

Really, how DO you remove an unwilling adult subject quickly from a building full of hostiles once the "owners" have ordered him removed without injuring him?

You can stop with one blast of the taser, and restrain the thus neutralized person. You can also refrain from tasering again when the subject won't stand up as ordered after you have hit him with a debilitating weapon. You can also avoid threatening passersby with the same treatment when they non-threateningly ask you to stop.

 

[jdinca]

You have got to be ******** me. Cops have severe institutional problems, such as the Abner Louima case tellner recalled for us. In response, we are supposed to extend respect. WTF? Maybe they should clean up their institutional problems before we are supposed to love them again. As it is, your advice reads like telling a battered wife she should love her husband more and avoid making him angry so he won't beat her any more.

I am sure that many, and even most, LEO's on this board or elsewhere are basically decent people. The problem is that cops are extended an enormous amount of power, and they use that power as well as the goodwill of the privileged in our society to shield themselves from the consequences of when they abuse or go beyond their power. Power without accountability is a huge problem even for a "good" individual. No cop, especially the "good" ones you remind us of, should object to accountability - yet most do, if not in word, then in practice.

No, actually I'm not ******** you. One of the main reasons that some cops are the way they are is because they deal with turds day in and day out who treat them with the same attitude that you're illustrating in this post. These people lay their lives on the line for complete strangers and what they get in return is being **** on by the very people they're there to help.

As for covering their asses, given the extreme willingness of people in this country to look at a 5 second clip of an altercation, with absolutely nothing else to put it into context and pass judgement that the officers involved used excessive force, I don't blame them. Quite frankly, the eagerness with which people are willing to lynch an authority figure with a minimal amount of facts, that are quite often wrong, makes me sick.

Accountability is important and I don't know many who wouldn't want to be held accountable. The problem is that many who appoint themselves judge and jury never take the time to get the full story. They consider soundbites and headlines to be valid evidence to pass judgement. Or, as you seem to, they take isolated cases and cry out that there's a systemic problem, when that is far from the case. I've worked alongside a lot of cops over the last 25 years and, quite frankly, I find them to be better trained, educated and more ethical now than ever.

If there's a bad cop who uses excessive force, I want him gone. If I catch one of my fellow firefighters stealing, I want him gone. If I catch a paramedic using the morphine from his drug box, I want him gone. That's the way it needs to be to maintain the public trust. But with the microscopic attention that's placed on everything we do, it's gotten to the point that it's almost impossible to do the job without somebody taking offense, whether their point of view is justified, or not.

 

[Empty Hands]

One of the main reasons that some cops are the way they are is because they deal with turds day in and day out who treat them with the same attitude that you're illustrating in this post.

Then rape them with a broom handle? Sorry, these guys are the ones with guns and the authority to use them, if they can't handle someone's bad attitude, then they should find another line of work. This argument is a dangerous shifting of responsibility from the cops who perform bad acts to the ones they perform them on.

These people lay their lives on the line for complete strangers and what they get in return is being **** on by the very people they're there to help.

While I appreciate the willingness of some cops who do so, no one forced them to become cops. They could have chosen a less dangerous line of work (although being a cop is nowhere near as dangerous as a commercial crab fisherman). Thus, I find this excuse for bad behavior less than convincing.

As for covering their asses, given the extreme willingness of people in this country to look at a 5 second clip of an altercation, with absolutely nothing else to put it into context and pass judgement that the officers involved used excessive force, I don't blame them. Quite frankly, the eagerness with which people are willing to lynch an authority figure with a minimal amount of facts, that are quite often wrong, makes me sick.

They're the ones in authority, they'll manage. And as tellner indicates, they usually walk. Which is a poor excuse anyways. Doctors, for instance, don't get to lie and cover for each other's malfeasance because people like to sue them. You also can't blame people who get upset when they see a "5 second" video of police repeatedly beating an already restrained man, for instance. You also can't blame, say, the black community for being suspicious - cops were the ones setting the dogs on them not long ago.

The problem is that many who appoint themselves judge and jury never take the time to get the full story. They consider soundbites and headlines to be valid evidence to pass judgement.

That would be fine and all, but it looks like the actual judges and juries are in on the game too.

Or, as you seem to, they take isolated cases and cry out that there's a systemic problem, when that is far from the case. I've worked alongside a lot of cops over the last 25 years and, quite frankly, I find them to be better trained, educated and more ethical now than ever.

Not every, or even a majority of cops have to be problems for the problems to be systemic. The blue line, the egregious cases that walk, the routine abuses of power that never make it to court - all of these are systemic problems, even if only a few "bad apples" are creating all the trouble.

 

[Empty Hands]

In an addendum to my last message, to prove it isn't just me ranting against cops, here is a link to an oped by the retired police chief of San Jose:
http://mapinc.org/newsleap/v99/n1033/a04.html

Some choice quotes:
"The lure of fortunes to be made in illegal drugs has led to thousands of police felonies: armed robbery, kidnapping, stealing drugs, selling drugs, perjury, framing people and even some murders. These police crimes were committed on duty, often while the cop gangsters were wearing their uniforms, the symbol of safety to the people they were supposed to be protecting."

"Sadly, however, these predatory criminals are protected by a code of silence. Otherwise honest officers who knew or suspected what was going on did not report the crooks, and at times even lied rather than testify against other cops."

"State and local police made approximately 1.4 million drug possession arrests last year. Very few took place with search warrants, although the 4th Amendment, with few exceptions, requires the police to obtain a judicial warrant to search people or their homes. It is so common for police to lie about how they obtained drug evidence that the term "testilying" has replaced "testifying" in police jargon."

"Mayors and police chiefs usually assure their citizens that there are only a few rotten apples when these scandals are publicized. Yet the number and similarity of police gangster crimes nationally indicate a crisis in American policing."

 

[tellner]

They have power combined with immunity from consequences. They also tend to be extroverted, aggressive and not terribly prone to reflection. That's part of the job selection process. I remember an FOP-sponsored study some years ago that indicated police officers were twice as likely as the general population to fit the profile of domestic abusers. Add clanishness and, more often than you'd care for, a disdain for the "civilians", a belief that they do not just enforce but are the law, a high rate of alcoholism and marital instability. There are going to be problems. Not for all police, but for the profession as a whole.

Doctors don't cover for other doctors' screw ups. And when physicians are disciplined it's done in the open. Everything is a matter of public record. Cops aren't subject to the same sort of scrutiny. When a doctor or lawyer gets sued it's her own money, reputation and insurance rates that suffer. A police officer has the benefits of Sovereign Immunity, the deep pockets of the department's insurance policy and so on. The fact that police everywhere have apoplexy at the thought of civilian review boards with any authority should give one pause. Roaches fear the light. Good people don't.

You certainly know a lot of good police officers, jdinca. So do I. And their job is somewhat dangerous. Less than a construction worker, firefighter, logger or cabbie (according to the CDC's morbidity and mortality figures), but more than an engineer's or nurse's. That doesn't alter the facts, and it doesn't solve the very real problems. Recognizing them does not make a person "anti-cop". It simply means that there are problems that need to be acknowledged and measures taken to fix them. Let's start with "testilying", "carrying on the badge" although that is now a matter of law rather than a little perk of the job, showing the badge when you're caught speeding and the universal delusion that whatever city hits the papers has a particularly bad force while my department isn't at all like that.

 

[jdinca]

They have power combined with immunity from consequences. They also tend to be extroverted, aggressive and not terribly prone to reflection. That's part of the job selection process. I remember an FOP-sponsored study some years ago that indicated police officers were twice as likely as the general population to fit the profile of domestic abusers. Add clanishness and, more often than you'd care for, a disdain for the "civilians", a belief that they do not just enforce but are the law, a high rate of alcoholism and marital instability. There are going to be problems. Not for all police, but for the profession as a whole.

Doctors don't cover for other doctors' screw ups. And when physicians are disciplined it's done in the open. Everything is a matter of public record. Cops aren't subject to the same sort of scrutiny. When a doctor or lawyer gets sued it's her own money, reputation and insurance rates that suffer. A police officer has the benefits of Sovereign Immunity, the deep pockets of the department's insurance policy and so on. The fact that police everywhere have apoplexy at the thought of civilian review boards with any authority should give one pause. Roaches fear the light. Good people don't.

You certainly know a lot of good police officers, jdinca. So do I. And their job is somewhat dangerous. Less than a construction worker, firefighter, logger or cabbie (according to the CDC's morbidity and mortality figures), but more than an engineer's or nurse's. That doesn't alter the facts, and it doesn't solve the very real problems. Recognizing them does not make a person "anti-cop". It simply means that there are problems that need to be acknowledged and measures taken to fix them. Let's start with "testilying", "carrying on the badge" although that is now a matter of law rather than a little perk of the job, showing the badge when you're caught speeding and the universal delusion that whatever city hits the papers has a particularly bad force while my department isn't at all like that.

I hate to tell you this, but a large number of physician screwups are swept under the carpet. I've witnessed many of them. The ones you hear about are the egregious ones that can't be covered up.

I'm certainly not trying to say that there aren't problems within the police community. I've known a lot of good cops but I certainly wouldn't want to spend a lot of off duty time with them. The position does require a certain personality type that, quite frankly, hasn't changed for a very long time and the nature of the job can take a heavy toll on their psyche. I could never be a cop. That said, I strongly believe the bad cop is the exception to the rule and not the norm. My whole purpose is to provide a different perspective to the one being presented by Empty Hands.

Nail the bad ones, let the good ones do their job without micromanaging and analyzing their every move. The only thing that results from that is cops taking a hands off attitude and the criminals having much more freedom to do their thing. I live in the Bay Area next to Berkeley, Oakland and San Francisco, where this scenario is a reality. There aren't a lot of people lining up to be cops in those cities and the bad guys are thrilled.

 

[jdinca]

In an addendum to my last message, to prove it isn't just me ranting against cops, here is a link to an oped by the retired police chief of San Jose:
http://mapinc.org/newsleap/v99/n1033/a04.html

Some choice quotes:
"The lure of fortunes to be made in illegal drugs has led to thousands of police felonies: armed robbery, kidnapping, stealing drugs, selling drugs, perjury, framing people and even some murders. These police crimes were committed on duty, often while the cop gangsters were wearing their uniforms, the symbol of safety to the people they were supposed to be protecting."

"Sadly, however, these predatory criminals are protected by a code of silence. Otherwise honest officers who knew or suspected what was going on did not report the crooks, and at times even lied rather than testify against other cops."

"State and local police made approximately 1.4 million drug possession arrests last year. Very few took place with search warrants, although the 4th Amendment, with few exceptions, requires the police to obtain a judicial warrant to search people or their homes. It is so common for police to lie about how they obtained drug evidence that the term "testilying" has replaced "testifying" in police jargon."

"Mayors and police chiefs usually assure their citizens that there are only a few rotten apples when these scandals are publicized. Yet the number and similarity of police gangster crimes nationally indicate a crisis in American policing."

A couple of other choice quotes:

"Of course, only a small percentage of American police officers are recidivist felons."

"A code of silence is not unique to police. It exists in the White House, among students, doctors, lawyers, business executives and other groups. Indeed, even as children, our parents and peers admonish us not to tattle. Basic human characteristics of loyalty, trust and security are involved. These motivations are even more intense in police work. If cops make an error of judgment, they or someone else may be killed, or they can be sent to jail for using too much force. And even the most ethical officers fear being falsely accused of brutality or other crimes and of being railroaded to prison because their chiefs or mayors will not support them in politically volatile cases."

"It is not surprising that many cops feel that the only one they can really trust is another cop."

"Official corruption will be a major problem as long as we cling to the present drug policies. The code of silence cannot be totally eliminated. But the harm to good cops and to society can be reduced if politicians abandon their demagogic calls for a police war against drugs. Police officers who are true partners with the community in reducing crime will be far more likely to report thugs on the force than cops who think they're part of a warring occupation army."

If you're going to quote an article, I think it's appropriate to quote the entire paragraph, not just the sentences that skew the intent and give a one sided view.

The title of this article was Law Enforcement Against Prohibition. It was written to support changes in the "War on Drugs" policy and was published in 1999.

 

[Empty Hands]

If you're going to quote an article, I think it's appropriate to quote the entire paragraph, not just the sentences that skew the intent and give a one sided view.

That's why I provided the link so anyone could read for themselves. The quotes you excerpt do not excuse the behavior, and I do not think the author intended it that way.

 

[BrandiJo]

wow, i didnt mean this thread to turn into a debate over weither or not police officers are over all good or over all evil
​

 

[jdinca]

wow, i didnt mean this thread to turn into a debate over weither or not police officers are over all good or over all evil ​

That's known as thread drift. Don't worry about it, none of it's personal.