Killer Instinct Training

[Sifu Barry Cuda]

Hey everybody,It was suggested I start a thread on a topic I feel quite strongly about, so here it goes.What does everybody here do to train the mental aspect of the streetfight? Bruce Lee said and it was told to me a thousand times by Vunak and Inosanto that when the crap hits the fan up to 90 percent of what you know will go out the window.How many of you train the mental aspect of Killer Instinct and what do you do? Looking foward to hearing from you, Barry www.combatartsusa.com i

 

[Cruentus]

Hey everybody,It was suggested I start a thread on a topic I feel quite strongly about, so here it goes.What does everybody here do to train the mental aspect of the streetfight? Bruce Lee said and it was told to me a thousand times by Vunak and Inosanto that when the crap hits the fan up to 90 percent of what you know will go out the window.How many of you train the mental aspect of Killer Instinct and what do you do? Looking foward to hearing from you, Barry www.combatartsusa.com i

I have an article that I wrote for "themartialist" (www.themartialist.com) on the famed "killer instinct" that you might find interesting. You may not agree with my entire premise, but it will educate all the same.

I may post it on my site in parts after it is published, but I'll have to get Phil's feedback on that to make sure that would be o.k....

Paul

 

[rutherford]

Barry, you're probably more qualified to talk about my Killer Instinct training than I am. I was with a Progressive Fighting System school in the mid 90's, own Paul Vunak's video on the subject, and attended a 2-day seminar by Dion Riccardo that focused entirely on the topic.

Here's a good summary article written by Paul Vunak: http://www.geocities.com/jkdresources/killerinstinct.html?200522

There were many more drills than the two mentioned at the end of that article, but I'm sure you're familiar with all of them.

In application, this is almost exactly how I fight. Once I move in, I don't have much in the way of coherant thoughts when fighting. Often it's like a small part in the back of my head says, "There's an opening." Meanwhile, the part of me that is acting is already three or four moves ahead.

I do have a lot of trouble relaxing if the fight goes to the ground, and you have to tie me up pretty good for me to pause long enough to start to relax and start opening up to finding a way out. In any long wrestling confrontation I'm sure my heightened aggression would lead me to be quickly tired out, but honestly a long confrontation is also the last thing I want.

As to losing 90% of what you know . . . I have a slightly different take on this. In a live confrontation, perhaps you don't do exactly what you've practiced. But I believe if you're aware and striving to win you'll find yourself doing things you'd never thought of before because they're exatly what's right for the situation. I have often looked back and said, "Wow! What the hell did I do there? That was amazing!"

 

[Aikia]

I too had written a thesis on killer instinct some years ago. Can't seem to find the paper now but the general idea was/is "You don't control killer instinct. Killer instinct controls you." Martial arts training helps you discover ways to better use the natural instinct. The more you experience the instinct, in sparring for example, the more you can limit the drive to finish or in this case over do it.

 

[James Kovacich]

I too had written a thesis on killer instinct some years ago. Can't seem to find the paper now but the general idea was/is "You don't control killer instinct. Killer instinct controls you." Martial arts training helps you discover ways to better use the natural instinct. The more you experience the instinct, in sparring for example, the more you can limit the drive to finish or in this case over do it.

For me, someone who isn't a killer, thats a good explanation. I think Dan and Vu are right except, they left out the part where our "natural instict" (which is trained) comes into play.

 

[Tgace]

I dont know if "killer instinct" is the right term. As to "truly" have that you need to be a psychopath. We are all "capable" of it to various degrees, but I dont believe its "instinctual".

I think you need to train students to realize that they are capable of far more than they realize. Thats what basic/boot in the military is about (IMO). Its not about "training in" skills at that level as much as it's about placing people under high levels of stress (physically and mentally) and waking them up to the fact that they can "drive on". To do that, I believe you have to take the student out of his comfort zone and impress upon him the fact that its not as much about success or failure as it is about not quitting.

 

[James Kovacich]

I dont know if "killer instinct" is the right term. As to "truly" have that you need to be a psychopath. We are all "capable" of it to various degrees, but I dont believe its "instinctual".

I think you need to train students to realize that they are capable of far more than they realize. Thats what basic/boot in the military is about (IMO). Its not about "training in" skills at that level as much as it's about placing people under high levels of stress (physically and mentally) and waking them up to the fact that they can "drive on". To do that, I believe you have to take the student out of his comfort zone and impress upon him the fact that its not as much about success or failure as it is about not quitting.

I think you gave a good answer for Barry.

I do know, that for me, a lot of what I do and can do is because the way I train. To be able to react without thinking. Just do. That comes from the way I train.

I also know that when it comes to fighting, mentally I'm ahead of the average guy out the gate. So it too has it's merit.

 

[Sifu Barry Cuda]

Great posts everybody.In the 80s Vunak was very big on killer instinct training.I learned that with certain methodologies you can turn it on and off like a switch.Bruce Lee could laugh and joke one minute, spar with you like a raving lunatic and then laugh and joke 2 seconds later.Paul always said the only difference between Mike Tyson on crack and Tim Conway is that one guy can get there faster.Anybody can summon up killer instinct if they know how.Some people need to be pushed and pushed to fight for their life, and some can turn it on at will.Tahts why it should be trained like you train the jab cross.When I was in the army Ive seen people that you never thought they could make it the 6 weeks of basic yet they were "toughened up".This should be done in martialarts schools.In my earlier post I kind of insinuated that the psycho with killer instinct would beat the trained guy because if the trained guy has no grasp of that kind of attitude he would be overwhelmed by the psycho,s mental state. Barry www.combatartsusa.com

 

[Tgace]

Personally I would refrain from using the term "killer instinct training" in a public course. Could lead to some interesting questions in court. "Mental Toughness Training" is better IMO. and pretty much the same thing.

Heres a relevant link...

http://www.fullcombat.com/Articles/Motivational/crunchtime.html

 

[Mush]

Great posts everybody.In the 80s Vunak was very big on killer instinct training.I learned that with certain methodologies you can turn it on and off like a switch.Bruce Lee could laugh and joke one minute, spar with you like a raving lunatic and then laugh and joke 2 seconds later.Paul always said the only difference between Mike Tyson on crack and Tim Conway is that one guy can get there faster.Anybody can summon up killer instinct if they know how.Some people need to be pushed and pushed to fight for their life, and some can turn it on at will.Tahts why it should be trained like you train the jab cross.When I was in the army Ive seen people that you never thought they could make it the 6 weeks of basic yet they were "toughened up".This should be done in martialarts schools.

I'd be interested if anyone knows of seminars that focus on this sort of thing in the UK for future development. It's definitely an area I need to improve in. I find I struggle with the amount of aggression I possess in sparring. I struggle to turn it on and keep it on. I've been researching bits myself (Geoff Thompson's book on fear and many great articles by guest Martial Artists on his website) as my instructor does not really discuss or focus too much on the mental side of fighting. Either you've got it or you haven't in his eyes.

 

[JKD_Silat]

Great thread! I was trying to articulate killer instinct to my girlfriend, because of the recent courtroom shooting case where the suspect shot the judge, the sherrifs deputy, and others before he escaped. The point I found interesting was that he was able to take the gun away from the 5'2, 105 lb. female deputy because she lacked "killer Instinct", and hesitated. My problem is that with all the self defense I've been teaching her over the years, and insisting that she carry pepper spray in her hand when she is walking home at night without me, I really doubt that in the "moment of truth", she'd do anything if she couldnt run away. That really concerns me. I'll pick up Vu's series right away! Thanks gentleman!

 

[Feisty Mouse]

I dont know if "killer instinct" is the right term. As to "truly" have that you need to be a psychopath. We are all "capable" of it to various degrees, but I dont believe its "instinctual".

I think you need to train students to realize that they are capable of far more than they realize. Thats what basic/boot in the military is about (IMO). Its not about "training in" skills at that level as much as it's about placing people under high levels of stress (physically and mentally) and waking them up to the fact that they can "drive on". To do that, I believe you have to take the student out of his comfort zone and impress upon him the fact that its not as much about success or failure as it is about not quitting.

Nice post.

I think although this training is clearly important, how you train students is critical. Most students walking into a martial arts studio are not planning (I hope) to engage in street fights or bar brawls necessarily.

 

[James Kovacich]

I lose potential students for a simialr reason. I tell them that they don't have to be full contact fighters but theres only one way to really know if our system works.

 

[Cruentus]

I am going to stir up this dead thread now that my article is out.

I wrote an article on this subject for "The Martialist" e-zine. I had done some pretty in depth research on the subject.

In a nutshell, and sorry to break it to you all, but there is no "killer instinct."

The name is a misnomer.

Human beings are social animals. Studies have shown that most animals, especially social ones, are averse to killing members of their own species. This would violate the biological need for a being to propigate its own species. This is why when one male gorilla enters anothers territory, they don't kill each other. They beat on the ground and their chest and yell; all different degrees of posturing. If they go to blows, they don't use their emense strength to kill each other. A better illustration is when 2 rattlesnakes fight, they don't bit each other. They have enough venom to kill each other many times over, yet they instead opt to wrestle until one snake or the other submits or flees.

The human instinctual response is no different. A Human's response to danger is to fight, flee, posture, or submit. "Killing" does not fit within the realm of the human resonse to danger. So, to tell someone your going to train them to "tap into a killer instinct" that does not really exist, your doing your students a diservice, and misleading them in their self-defense training to at least a degree.

Now, it is true that human beings, although not instinctual, kill each other all the time. This is because along with being instinctual animals, we are also logical beings. The fact is that there has to be a certain set of conditions in place for one human being to kill another. A violent criminal prepared to kill another already has these conditions in place prior to the attack. You cannot expect most people to gear themselves up to meet their attacker with that level of violent intent no matter how much they train.

So, in terms of training, I think it is important to be able to train people how and when to tap into their fight response, how to draw out aggression, how to have a winning mentality, and how to create as much trauma as quickly as possible on their attacker to stop them enough to offer an opportunity to escape. I think that these are more valid ideas then training someone to tap into something fictitious.

Paul

 

[rutherford]

So, basically you don't like the name?

Is how we describe the training really that important? I don't think it is, but I still can't help but point out that same species predation certainly occurs in nature. And the word Cannibalism which describes the act is named after a human tribe. . .


The art I'm currently studying considers the correct feeling essential to proper execution of movements. Aggression is certainly a part of some of the movements, but for others it's completely counterproductive. Learning to control and move through these feelings is something I expect takes quite a lot of experience, and I've only taken a few very small steps.

 

[TonyM.]

Tgace and Tulisan caught the correct on killer instinct. Mental toughness is one thing that can be taught. To teach killer instinct is another thing altogether. If you want to read about it do a google search on project MKultra and project Monarch.

 

[Cruentus]

So, basically you don't like the name?

No, I don't like the name. But, the name effects what is taught and how material is taught. Some people build false perceptions and false confidence when they train others to "tap into killer instinct;" these can lead to false expectations that could severely hinder their performance if the trainie was ever seriously attacked.

Is how we describe the training really that important? I don't think it is,

But it is; at least if your imparting life-saving information, how you impart that information is vital.

but I still can't help but point out that same species predation certainly occurs in nature. And the word Cannibalism which describes the act is named after a human tribe. . .

No one is saying that same species lethal violence does not occur, only that it is not instinctual. For human beings to kill each other, a number of elements need to be in place that have little to do with instinct.

The art I'm currently studying considers the correct feeling essential to proper execution of movements. Aggression is certainly a part of some of the movements, but for others it's completely counterproductive. Learning to control and move through these feelings is something I expect takes quite a lot of experience, and I've only taken a few very small steps.

In a martial art, I can see how in theory you can bring yourself to a higher level of skill to be able to have a degree of emotional control in violent situations. However, in training people for basic self-defense, it is enough of a task to prepare them simply to draw out enough aggression to utilize the fight option.

:asian:

 

[rutherford]

No one is saying that same species lethal violence does not occur, only that it is not instinctual. For human beings to kill each other, a number of elements need to be in place that have little to do with instinct.

I see this as only metaphorically related to the training, as it doesn't involve actually killing people.

So, how does the name change and high level theory impact instruction?

Taking this down from the theoretical, does your article talk about the specifics of training that you prefer? Would you do so here?

 

[Tgace]

Words mean things, and teaching people that they are somehow now "killers" or tapping into some non-existant "instinct" is....well wrong. Even bayonet training in the Army was taught to tap into "aggression", not any "killer instinct".

 

[rutherford]

Words mean things, and teaching people that they are somehow now "killers" or tapping into some non-existant "instinct" is....well wrong. Even bayonet training in the Army was taught to tap into "aggression", not any "killer instinct".

I'm willing to concede the point that the name is a mysnomer.

:idunno: But, I also have to ask how you can reasonably expect to do anything but kill somebody if you stick them with a bayonet? And, apparently at least some bayonet training in the army does focus on killing. http://www.parkwayreststop.com/archives/000450.html

I tend to think that typical bayonet range isn't when JKD Killer Instinct training would focus aggression. Instead, this is where Paul would probably suggest you attack as a "cold machine".