kicks?

[Enson]

i noticed that toshindo doesn't teach how to kick. in fact when i saw their practicioners front snap kick it was weak in power and in form. not to say that toshindo is weak in anyway. then i heard mr. hayes say they don't teach kicks but they should learn to defend against them. i think its cool but it made me wonder if bujin teaches kicks and mr. hayes cut them out? i know that we learn multiple kicks in tew-ryu but it made me wonder about others.

 

[Dale Seago]

There are lots of kicks in the Bujinkan arts, but you can go a very long time without seeing them all. Since hanging something out with all your weight on a single leg is a potential vulnerability, the usual strategy is to kick when the opponent can't see it, is off-balance and can't stop it or evade even if he does see it; etc. Low kicks are much more commonly used than high ones, but even leaping kicks are found in these arts.

 

[Enson]

so i guess toshindo just cut them out. thanks dale. maybe shogun can present some more imput on the subject.

 

[Cryozombie]

I agree with Dale. A big part of what I am learning now is "Hidden Kicking" used as part of the "Mid Fight Idea"...

You know... its not Block, counterstrike/throw/lock, etc...

But like Block, as you execute a hidden kick to counter his balance and help throw off any secondary/followup attack so you can execute the counterstrike/throw/lock, etc...

Its hard to describe in a typed thread and have it make sense... blah.

 

[Zepp]

I don't train in Ninjitsu, but I feel the need to play devil's advocate here: Can you really learn to defend against kicks well without learning to execute kicks well?

 

[Cryozombie]

I don't train in Ninjitsu, but I feel the need to play devil's advocate here: Can you really learn to defend against kicks well without learning to execute kicks well?

Hmm, My answer would be Yes.

Provided, of course... you have a proficent kicker to train AGAINST.

I mean think about it... In baseball, you dont have to be a great batter to be a great pictcher...

In In hockey you dont have to be a great shooter to be a good goalie...

But to develop those skills, you do need someone who can do them to train against.

 

[Elizium]

What about Itcho from Kihon Happo?

 

[Kreth]

What about Itcho from Kihon Happo?

Um, Hicho maybe?

Jeff

 

[Kokoro]

Jeff

It's the Yorkshire / English way of saying it

Need to get him a Mary Berry typing course or a dictionary for his next grading:supcool: can't decide which yet though

 

[Enson]

well mr. hayes does show how to throw someone off balance when they do kick but i just wonder if it would be effective against a real kicker? (taekwondo) not trying to put down at all. just wondering.

peace

 

[Kokoro]

Define "real kicker". Anyone with any technique is potentially going to get you if you don't see it coming.

In my school were lucky in that we have guys ranked on Tang Soo do and Tae kwon do and various schools of karate, Dan ranks that is and the students utilising the skills within the Bujinkan don't have an issue with them, when we see it coming

Seriously though, the normals apply whether it is a kicker or a puncher, Maai-Nagare etc, and train, train train

 

[Enson]

i guess someone that has mastered kicks and uses them as part of their fighting repetoire. (spelling) like i mentioned tkd. no one can deny that they aren't awesome kickers. just wondering if the throw off balance leg raises would really work? i know that tkd practicioners are fast and some of their kicks are decieving. i guess the best defense is just not being there and then to counter.

peace

 

[Dale Seago]

i guess the best defense is just not being there and then to counter.

Not being there is considered, in The Booj, to be the way to go whenever possible. We consider it a bit silly to "contest the space" an opponent is trying to use to reach us. A punch or kick coming at us, for example, uses a certain small amount of space; however, there is a great flipping HUGE amount of space that it does not use. . .so we just go to where a "safe-shaped space" will be at the time we get to it.

For a bit more on this whole "use of space" thing, see this section of the FAQ at my website.

 

[Kreth]

Jeff

It's the Yorkshire / English way of saying it

Need to get him a Mary Berry typing course or a dictionary for his next grading:supcool: can't decide which yet though

I'm a bit concerned that a shodan doesn't know the proper name for one of our basics, but back to the topic...
I can't speak for Toshindo, but to be honest I find it hard to believe they would neglect a potentially useful tool like kicking. As Dale said, the majority of our kicks in the Bujinkan tend to be the low, sneaky type. But, there are high and even leaping kicks as well. For the most part, these riskier kicks are used when an opponent is off-balance, or you are attacking from his blind spot.
As for Taekwondo kicking, due to the kicks being very range specific (this applies to any snapping type of attack), in general, I've found proper use of distancing to be more useful than trying to counter-kick. It's very similar to the dicussions about dealing with grapplers. If your opponent specializes in a specific type of fighting, don't take him on in his area of expertise.

Jeff

 

[Kokoro]

Jeff

No problem, think he must have been on the happy juice or something when typing, he know the technique ok.

I think your right also in what you say, don't take on some one at their speciality unless its yours as well, then it just gets fun.

I think too many people get hung up about what another system can do rather than concentrating on what we do (we being the Bujinkan in this instance). As Dale also says, space is al around us, just a matter of using it correctly, still working on that bit though

 

[Elizium]

Um, Hicho maybe?

Jeff

Nope Itcho. I am speaking the Yorkshire language that drops the 'H' within speech so it comes out Itcho. But Hicho can be accepted as a universal variant. Unless you live in Barnsley then it is called that silly kick thingy.

 

[Dale Seago]

Unless you live in Barnsley then it is called that silly kick thingy.

I think that's what our folks in Ireland call it too. . .

 

[DuckofDeath]

Interesting quote from Bob Orlando's Martial Arts America (1997) p. 36:

"An example of how an unarmed technique common today would have been impractical yesterday appeared in an article on ninjutsu in Black Belt magazine. According to the article, ninjutsu authority Stephen Hayes states that the roundhouse kick is not included in the traditional ninja arsenal of personal weapons. As Hayes explains it, this is because the targets we commonly strike with a roundhouse kick today 'would have been armored in the old days, so there wouldn't have been any reason to put a foot there'."

Comments?

 

[Dale Seago]

Comments?

I've seen Hatsumi sensei use roundhouse-type kicks a number of times, though the dynamics are a bit different from what's seen in most karate styles.

Over the years, I've learned never to assert that "We don't have X kind of thing in the Bujinkan".

As for the targeting. . .well, for cryin' out loud, Koto ryu has a large amount of meridian-point targeting, which would be useless if all of these arts were intended only for fighting armored opponents; while other ryuha have plenty of pressure point striking/muscle tearing/skin-ripping type stuff.

I think a better way today to express our philosophy on both strikes and kicks is that the tool used (e.g., hand or foot) needs to be optimally conformed to (a) the shape and nature of the target, and (b) the shape of the space through which it must travel to reach the target.