Kenpo Seniors Rank Progression

[HKphooey]

There is another thread discussing a Jeff Speakman video clip and the following question came to mind (I also posted it in that thread).

Does any one have info on the rank progression of all the "Seniors" after GM Parker's death and how did they earn/or were awarded that new rank?

 

[michaeledward]

Mr. Planas reports, via the Parker Planas Lineage web site:

1985 - Was awarded 7th degree by Mr. Parker. The highest, non-honorary, non-political rank awarded that year.

1991 - One of the associations formed after Mr. Parker's death awarded him an 8th degree black belt. It does not specify which association.

1995 - "Several of the associations" formed after Mr. Parker's death, "joined together" to promote him to 9th degree black belt. Again, it does not specify which associations.


A couple of years back, there was some language about Mr. Planas having been recognized with a 10th degree black belt. There is no language on his web site mentioning this.

Mr. Planas, whenever I have seen him, wears a worn black belt with no stripes.

 

[HKphooey]

Thanks Michael.

Anyone have info on the others?

 

[HKphooey]

Some more info from KenpoThoughts....

http://www.kenpothoughts.com/forum/forumid_8/tt.htm

 

[bushidomartialarts]

I'm not certain we want to walk this road, my friend. Mr. Speakman's interview demonstrates what happens when all those seniors start talking about rank, politics and who's on top. I don't know the reasons for that rat's nest, but I've found it best to keep them all out of my head space.

 

[IWishToLearn]

The only ones I can speak about are the IKCA Founders, Chuck Sullivan & Vic Le Roux. Both received their last promotions from Mr. Parker in 1981. The IKCA was chartered in 1994. (It had existed as the Karate Connection school, but was not an association until 94.) All future promotions came under the auspices of the IKCA Bylaws.

In 1991 both Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Le Roux tested with the same procedures all IKCA members are held accountable for and passed for their 8th and 6th degrees, respectively.

November 1993 - Mr. Le Roux 7th Degree
November 1996 - Mr. Sullivan 9th Degree, Mr. Le Roux 8th Degree
November 1999 - Mr. Sullivan 10th Degree, Mr. Le Roux 9th Degree
November 2002 - Mr. Le Roux 10th Degree

 

[Flying Crane]

The only ones I can speak about are the IKCA Founders, Chuck Sullivan & Vic Le Roux. Both received their last promotions from Mr. Parker in 1981. The IKCA was chartered in 1994. (It had existed as the Karate Connection school, but was not an association until 94.) All future promotions came under the auspices of the IKCA Bylaws.

In 1991 both Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Le Roux tested with the same procedures all IKCA members are held accountable for and passed for their 8th and 6th degrees, respectively.

November 1993 - Mr. Le Roux 7th Degree
November 1996 - Mr. Sullivan 9th Degree, Mr. Le Roux 8th Degree
November 1999 - Mr. Sullivan 10th Degree, Mr. Le Roux 9th Degree
November 2002 - Mr. Le Roux 10th Degree

Who created the procedures under which they would test, and who tested them, and how were these people in a position to make that judgement?

 

[IWishToLearn]

I took the info from the newsletters on the IKCA site. Feel free to do the same. It explains the origins of the Bylaws, testing procedure, etc.

Everyone has their own way of doing things. I found the method the IKCA uses to be one of the fairest and least subjective around, which is why I'm a member.

 

[Flying Crane]

I took the info from the newsletters on the IKCA site. Feel free to do the same. It explains the origins of the Bylaws, testing procedure, etc.

Everyone has their own way of doing things. I found the method the IKCA uses to be one of the fairest and least subjective around, which is why I'm a member.

Fair enough, and I don't mean to be critical, it's just that this kind of situation sort of creates a paradox that causes questions to pop up.

If they are the founders of their method, then maybe it makes sense to just assume the rank. After all, they designed it, it's their show, nobody else can tell them to do it differently.

But if they created a ranking requirement for their own rank, of course they will be able to pass it, and nobody else is really in a position to question that, or deny them the rank, or tell them they didn't do it well enough, or even tell them that they DID do it well enough. Nobody else is in a position to test and judge them one way or the other. So why not just recognize that fact, and assume the rank, 'cause it's their show and they can do whatever they want...

 

[IWishToLearn]

Not trying to start a flame war, but just one point - the Bylaws were not the sole creation of Mr. Sullivan & Le Roux. They formatted the input of the black belts they had pre-IKCA days along with their own suggestions into what became the Bylaws - and it was ratified by a quorum (not sure exactly how many - but I know it was more than 15) of their senior black belt students when the association was chartered. They didn't create a ranking requirement for themselves alone - it's universally applied to all IKCA members. There are procedures in place for the IKCA seniors' promotions should both of the Founders meet an untimely demise without naming a successor as well.

 

[Flying Crane]

Not trying to start a flame war, but just one point - the Bylaws were not the sole creation of Mr. Sullivan & Le Roux. They formatted the input of the black belts they had pre-IKCA days along with their own suggestions into what became the Bylaws - and it was ratified by a quorum (not sure exactly how many - but I know it was more than 15) of their senior black belt students when the association was chartered. They didn't create a ranking requirement for themselves alone - it's universally applied to all IKCA members. There are procedures in place for the IKCA seniors' promotions should both of the Founders meet an untimely demise without naming a successor as well.

OK, I can see where you're coming from. It makes sense, but ultimately it still comes from them. Even the other blackbelts who gave input are their own students, so arguably it is still their own creation.

I can also appreciate that they created procedures for their own succession, and promotions after their death, that makes sense.

Again, I'm not trying to be critical or argumentative, just looking at the bigger picture and the ramifications and relationships and whatnot.

 

[HKphooey]

My goal of this post was not to question any of the ranks, just curious as to how the promotions happened. I feel most of the seniors have done wonders for the art. And if their peers felt they were ready for advancement, so be it. If we are not studying under that person, what do we care of their rank. I think the teachers time in the art and skill speaks for itself. So far every senior I have talked to or met has been very respectful to me. They never spoke bad of others to me. And in most cases people are defending their own honor when they are attacked (and it is usually by a student of the senior, not the senior himself).

Once GM parker passed away there ahd to be some way for people to advance. Ideally it should have been the IKKA, but stuff happens. Even the closest family has its fights and siblings drift apart.

Thanks for the info so far.

 

[Doc]

My goal of this post was not to question any of the ranks, just curious as to how the promotions happened. I feel most of the seniors have done wonders for the art. And if their peers felt they were ready for advancement, so be it. If we are not studying under that person, what do we care of their rank. I think the teachers time in the art and skill speaks for itself. So far every senior I have talked to or met has been very respectful to me. They never spoke bad of others to me. And in most cases people are defending their own honor when they are attacked (and it is usually by a student of the senior, not the senior himself).

Once GM parker passed away there ahd to be some way for people to advance. Ideally it should have been the IKKA, but stuff happens. Even the closest family has its fights and siblings drift apart.

Thanks for the info so far.

By student request:

My rank progression after Mr. Parker passed came from various organizations and groups. Initially I was recruited by Grandmasters Ralph Castro, Duke Moore, and Dr. Bernd Weise into ATAMA (American Teachers Association of the Martial Arts).

At a national ATAMA Symposium at Pierce College I taught seminars with the above notables, as well as Grandmaster Takayuki Kubota, and Sijo Edwin Hamile, I was awarded an eighth. Ralph Castro's presence and endorsement, was very meaningful to me.

Later, I was recruited by Dr. Weise to be involved in the creation of a Southern California Chapter of ATAMA where I resided as vice-president for 5 years. Near the end of my tenure, leaving for personal reasons, I was awarded a ninth through ATAMA, as well as a ninth endorsement from Dan Zan Ryu Jiujitsu, from Dominic and Helen Carollo.

It was during this period I was profiled in a book ATAMA published, "Who's Who in the Martial Arts." During this same period I was also awarded a ninth from the World Organization of Karate-do endorsed by Gosoku Ryu Karate-do founder Takayuki Kubota and West Coast Shotokan President Ed Hamile. Lastly, several years later, I was endorsed again as a tenth by ATAMA. There are other rank endorsements and promotions as well.

I greatly appreciate all of the rank awards and endorsements I've received over the years, and the approval of notable predecessors and peers is important. However philosophically for me, numerical rank is not as important as the requisite knowledge to support such lofty titles and rank. With the flood of high rank, triggered by commercial success it seems as if everyone is a "professor, grandmaster, soke, or some such. Therefore, in personal references I tend to not speak of rank as a part of my personal qualifications or certifications. I prefer to honor the ranks I possess by concentrating on the qualities to support the ranks, rather than the ranks themselves.

I wear no stripes and I am not a grandmaster, nor do I have the desire to assume a mantle reserved in Kenpo for me, for my teacher, Ed Parker.

End of story.

 

[IWishToLearn]

Doc - just out of personal curiosity - to your knowledge is there a roster of when the various seniors were issued their various ranks by Mr. Parker? Again I'm only familiar with Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Le Roux's ranks from Mr. Parker cause they're the only ones I've asked...as well as Mr. Conatser providing dates for the last ranks Mr. Parker issued. I'm just curious to see who got 1st when, 2nd when, 3rd when, etc.

 

[Doc]

Doc - just out of personal curiosity - to your knowledge is there a roster of when the various seniors were issued their various ranks by Mr. Parker? Again I'm only familiar with Mr. Sullivan and Mr. Le Roux's ranks from Mr. Parker cause they're the only ones I've asked...as well as Mr. Conatser providing dates for the last ranks Mr. Parker issued. I'm just curious to see who got 1st when, 2nd when, 3rd when, etc.

The only time any real records were being kept was when Mr. Parker moved into computers in the mid-eighties. Even "Infinite Insights" were done in the late seventies/early eighties, the old fashion "cut and paste" method of book make up.

Not that he didn't try to keep track, but he always said the diplomas themselves were the "best record," and he could tell if one presented was phony or not. Prior to going computerized Parker's certificates and diplomas were filled out by hand, and then later some were partially typewritten and rubber stamped. Additionally, there was a period when membership cards and promotions came with a card that was actually a miniature rank certificate with instructor signatures, and expiration dates.

When Parker decided to include a definitive "Family Tree" in Volume One of Infinite Insights, it became clear the record keeping needed a serious overhaul. Parker had to contact his black belts he remembered, and rely on their records and memories of who he/they promoted.

I was involved in actually editing some of the information presented, as some "padded" their lists with names that didn't belong. Parker caught most of them one way or another and deleted them from the list before publication, but a few slipped through because Parker couldn't remember if they belonged or not.

Once computerized, Parker turned memberships and record keeping over to a son-in-law, along with the publication of the "monthly Newsletter." Both were a disaster. His record keeping was sloppy, and the newsletter became a "hit and miss kinda almost semi-annual event once a year almost." This is the reason the first (and really last), newsletter published immediately after Mr. Parker's death to establish some order, had some people one rank short. The information was never entered into the computer in some cases.

So in answer to your question, no. The only real record you have are the diplomas themselves. Some still have all of theirs, but many don't. Some were never issued because promotions were not "formal." In the old days the certificates weren't important. Only the right to wear the belt as you progressed with Parker's blessing mattered. Parker would "bump" guys up over the phone, or see a guy and tell him "you're promoted." Few ever asked for certificates. They only became a big deal much later when Edmund created the new large diploma.

Parker had the large diplomas numbered by Charles Gonzalez at Castle Litho (Mr. Parker's printer), in an effort to keep track, but that failed as well. Many diplomas were issued out of sequence. Some were destroyed, some simply had mistakes when they were filled out so they were tossed for another. I have a black belt student (Lincoln Conti) who was issued a 3rd and 4th, and Parker issued both diplomas with consecutive numbers even though they were dated three years apart. I have another ex-student (Tommy Chavies) whose diplomas for 4th and 5th were done at the same time, but reflect non-consecutive numbers because Parker reached into the pile to avoid that, and I didn't sign the 5th until after Mr. parker had passed way.

Additionally, there are actual legitimate belt holders who just weren't and aren't any good. Lots of people graduate from college everyday, but it doesn't make them (unfortunately) competent in their field.

Finally, the list of the last and highest ranking students of Parker enjoys a consensus among the seniors, and although there are a couple that have "suggested" they were on that list, most of the seniors know who were and who weren't. Dennis is an excellent authority on Kenpo, meticulous record keeper, and modern historian. Whatever he said, I'd take it to the bank.

 

[IWishToLearn]

As usual sir, thank you very much for the font of info. I'll pm Professor Conatser and inquire ;-).

 

[Doc]

...It was during this period I was profiled in a book ATAMA published, "Who's Who in the Martial Arts." ...

Correction: The publication was entitled "Who's Who In ATAMA" and included earlier pictures of myself with Ed Parker and Ralph Castro.

 

[KenpoRick]

I'm not a well known Kenpo Artist, and it feels kinda' weird thinking of myself a 'senior', however, since I started the study of Okinawa Te (in Okinawa) in 1970 and switched to Ed Parker's Kenpo in 1975, my total years spent studying MA equals 37...Maybe you'd want to toss in the boxing we did in high school too...

Anyway, I know there are more than a few guys out there like me, who never made videos or aren't 'famous' on the seminar circuit, but have actually been around for many years and have been known to throw some decent Kenpo techniques at the Friday Night Line in Pasadena, during our tests, and on the street when it's been neccessary.

I, as you, have caught myself wondering about other peoples rank from time to time.
Usually when I see them do their style of Kenpo...I mean, come on...some of these guys should be 'demoted' to a rank more fitting of their skill...like Jr. Brown Belt or something, instead of 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th 9th or 10th Black. I'm sure you have seen some of the videos I speak about, and maybe that is what sparked your curiosity as to the validity of people's rank.

What I know, is that there are many guy's out there I consider to be my Kenpo Seniors not because of age (one I could name is younger than me), but because of:
1) time in the art.
2) skill.
3) knowledge.
4) teaching experience (number of hours on the mats).
5) Mr. Parker's opinion of their art (we had discussions regarding how other guys were moving at the time).
6) My opinion of their art (I think I have been around long enough to have one).
7) contributions to the art.

Rank isn't a factor here...there are and have been, guys that wear less stripes than I, yet, per the previous list of criteria, definitely ARE my seniors...
On the other hand, there are some that wear more stripes than I, yet, per the privious list of criteria, definitely ARE NOT senior to me. So go figure...

When I was Mr. Parker's student, the rule for black belt promotions he explained to me was that you had to be a rank a minimum of years equal to that rank, before becoming eligible for the next rank (one year as a 1st to test for 2nd, two years as a second to test for 3rd, etc)...however he did bend this rule for various situations...using this formula, a guy would need 45 years in the art to be eligible to wear 10th black...

In my day, a 3rd Black was scarce and considered a 'higher' rank...Mr. Parker would generally 'bestow' higher ranks after the 'performance' phase of the test was over. During the 'promotion ceremony' phase, he would point to you and tell you "down in your horse"...then his kicks were dealt out and you were the next rank.
Frank Trejo once told me that I was the first guy he ever saw test for 4th...that was in 1984...in 1988 during a lesson in his living room, he kicked me for 5th.

In 1993, my good friend Dave George (R.I.P.) showed me a video of a test in which he and Diane Tanaka were promoted to 5th...so I guess Mr. Parker eventually afigured he needed to test for higher ranks too...

My own particular Kenpo promotions/instructors were/are as follows:

White to Green - (1975 - took 9 months) - tested in Long Beach, CA under Mr. Ed Booze with Mr. Huk Planas overseeing and graciously teaching me privately here and there...

Brown 3rd (1977) - tested in Santa Monica, CA School under Mr. Larry Tatum with Mr. Ed Parker on the board. Also various other Black Belts.

Brown 2nd (1978) - tested in Santa Monica, CASchool Under Mr. Larry Tatum with Mr. Ed Parker on the board. Also various other Black Belts.

Brown 1st (1979) - tested in Santa Monica, CA School under Mr. Larry Tatum with Mr. Ed Parker on the board. Also various other Black Belts.

Black 1st (1979) - tested in Santa Monica, CA School under Mr. Larry Tatum with Mr. Ed Parker on the board.

Black 2nd (1981) - tested in Pasadena, CA School under Mr. Ed Parker. Also various other Black Belts.

Black 3rd (1982) - tested in El Cajon, CA School under Mr. Ed Parker. Also another Black Belt.

Black 4th (1984) - tested in Pasadena, CA School under Mr. Ed Parker. Also various other Black Belts.

Black 5th (1988) - promoted in Pasadena, CA by Mr. Ed Parker during a lesson at his house.

Black 6th (1996) - promoted in Hemet, CA by Mr. Dave Hebler.

Black 7th (1998) - promoted in Norco, CA by Mr. Dave Hebler.

Black 8th (2004) - promoted in Fort Collins, CO by Mr. Richard Post.

Black 9th (2006) - Promoted in Loveland, CO School by Mr. Frank Trejo.

I apologize for this long winded answer. Thinking about this subject brought back many great memories and reminded me of a time when I was young and strong...
Besides, I thought you might enjoy a precise response to your question...
Thanks for listening...
Rick Hughes
American Silver Tiger Kenpo Association
Loveland Kenpo Karate School
Loveland, Colorado
970-980-8852
P.S. For an even more detailed version of my Kenpo Bio, check my website.
http://www.lovelandkenpo.com
Take care...

 

[Doc]

I'm not a well known Kenpo Artist, and it feels kinda' weird thinking of myself a 'senior', however, since I started the study of Okinawa Te (in Okinawa) in 1970 and switched to Ed Parker's Kenpo in 1975, my total years spent studying MA equals 37...Maybe you'd want to toss in the boxing we did in high school too...

Anyway, I know there are more than a few guys out there like me, who never made videos or aren't 'famous' on the seminar circuit, but have actually been around for many years and have been known to throw some decent Kenpo techniques at the Friday Night Line in Pasadena, during our tests, and on the street when it's been neccessary.

I, as you, have caught myself wondering about other peoples rank from time to time.
Usually when I see them do their style of Kenpo...I mean, come on...some of these guys should be 'demoted' to a rank more fitting of their skill...like Jr. Brown Belt or something, instead of 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th 9th or 10th Black. I'm sure you have seen some of the videos I speak about, and maybe that is what sparked your curiosity as to the validity of people's rank.

What I know, is that there are many guy's out there I consider to be my Kenpo Seniors not because of age (one I could name is younger than me), but because of:
1) time in the art.
2) skill.
3) knowledge.
4) teaching experience (number of hours on the mats).
5) Mr. Parker's opinion of their art (we had discussions regarding how other guys were moving at the time).
6) My opinion of their art (I think I have been around long enough to have one).
7) contributions to the art.

Rank isn't a factor here...there are and have been, guys that wear less stripes than I, yet, per the previous list of criteria, definitely ARE my seniors...
On the other hand, there are some that wear more stripes than I, yet, per the privious list of criteria, definitely ARE NOT senior to me. So go figure...

When I was Mr. Parker's student, the rule for black belt promotions he explained to me was that you had to be a rank a minimum of years equal to that rank, before becoming eligible for the next rank (one year as a 1st to test for 2nd, two years as a second to test for 3rd, etc)...however he did bend this rule for various situations...using this formula, a guy would need 45 years in the art to be eligible to wear 10th black...

In my day, a 3rd Black was scarce and considered a 'higher' rank...Mr. Parker would generally 'bestow' higher ranks after the 'performance' phase of the test was over. During the 'promotion ceremony' phase, he would point to you and tell you "down in your horse"...then his kicks were dealt out and you were the next rank.
Frank Trejo once told me that I was the first guy he ever saw test for 4th...that was in 1984...in 1988 during a lesson in his living room, he kicked me for 5th.

In 1993, my good friend Dave George (R.I.P.) showed me a video of a test in which he and Diane Tanaka were promoted to 5th...so I guess Mr. Parker eventually afigured he needed to test for higher ranks too...

My own particular Kenpo promotions/instructors were/are as follows:

White to Green - (1975 - took 9 months) - tested in Long Beach, CA under Mr. Ed Booze with Mr. Huk Planas overseeing and graciously teaching me privately here and there...

Brown 3rd (1977) - tested in Santa Monica, CA School under Mr. Larry Tatum with Mr. Ed Parker on the board. Also various other Black Belts.

Brown 2nd (1978) - tested in Santa Monica, CASchool Under Mr. Larry Tatum with Mr. Ed Parker on the board. Also various other Black Belts.

Brown 1st (1979) - tested in Santa Monica, CA School under Mr. Larry Tatum with Mr. Ed Parker on the board. Also various other Black Belts.

Black 1st (1979) - tested in Santa Monica, CA School under Mr. Larry Tatum with Mr. Ed Parker on the board.

Black 2nd (1981) - tested in Pasadena, CA School under Mr. Ed Parker. Also various other Black Belts.

Black 3rd (1982) - tested in El Cajon, CA School under Mr. Ed Parker. Also another Black Belt.

Black 4th (1984) - tested in Pasadena, CA School under Mr. Ed Parker. Also various other Black Belts.

Black 5th (1988) - promoted in Pasadena, CA by Mr. Ed Parker during a lesson at his house.

Black 6th (1996) - promoted in Hemet, CA by Mr. Dave Hebler.

Black 7th (1998) - promoted in Norco, CA by Mr. Dave Hebler.

Black 8th (2004) - promoted in Fort Collins, CO by Mr. Richard Post.

Black 9th (2006) - Promoted in Loveland, CO School by Mr. Frank Trejo.

I apologize for this long winded answer. Thinking about this subject brought back many great memories and reminded me of a time when I was young and strong...
Besides, I thought you might enjoy a precise response to your question...
Thanks for listening...
Rick Hughes
American Silver Tiger Kenpo Association
Loveland Kenpo Karate School
Loveland, Colorado
970-980-8852
P.S. For an even more detailed version of my Kenpo Bio, check my website.
http://www.lovelandkenpo.com
Take care...

How you doing old friend? The old man is still kickin'. Glad to see you make some noise, and yeah you're a senior.

 

[Goldendragon7]

By student request:

I greatly appreciate all of the rank awards and endorsements I've received over the years, and the approval of notable predecessors and peers is important.

However philosophically for me, numerical rank is not as important as the requisite knowledge to support such lofty titles and rank.

With the flood of high rank, triggered by commercial success it seems as if everyone is a "professor, grandmaster, soke, or some such.

I prefer to honor the ranks I possess by concentrating on the qualities to support the ranks, rather than the ranks themselves.

End of story.

Now if everyone would feel this way...... we would have a wonderful "brotherhood" !!!

Some of these so called Grandmasters have no clue as to the depth of the system..... worse yet.. they don't care....

One day they will be in the midst of someone who is truly knowledgeable .. and when asked to explain short form one in its entirety .... they will be exposed.
One day they will be asked to demonstrate their effectiveness on an opponent that is open to block, move or defend the attack not just stand there and be utilized as a cooperative partner.... then we'll see their skills...... these so call's have no dents..... no scars of battle no sparring abilities and little true understanding of the system..... sure they have much "know" or "know of" ..... but often times ends there.

:asian: