Karate's Public Image

[chinto]

I have to disagree with you about the origins of boxing. It was a sport practiced by the ancient Greeks long before the Latin word pugnis ("fist") came into existence. The Greeks practiced it as a sport as combat to them was between armed men.

Regardless of this, I agree that it would be bad for Karate to be "dumbed down" into prize fighting.

yes tht is true that both pancratian and greek boxing were used in the olimpics, but as pugilisum the romans changed boxing a little and it was used in the arina in the "games" by gladiators in combats that were at times to the death. ( not all gladiators fights were to the death.. at least 60% or so were not the historians are saying) but yes to dumb down any martial art to a prize fighting sport is very very unfortunent.

 

[chinto]

I like that people think it's soft. Let them. It is up to us to continue to practice that which is bad-*** self defense and keep it alive. The McDojo's make the real schools that much more real. A diamond in the rough, so to speak. As long as we keep it real, it's still real. Karate's too popular anyway, IMO.

I don"t know about to popular, but it has been dumbed down by some schools to be more apropret to kids. this is very unfortunent in that there are adults who learned karate as kids and do not realize this and teach what they were tought as they were tought it. this leads to people who have not been tought the applications that are originaly intended for self defence and yet they think they have been given all the training that they need to defend themselves. It is sad that some one who has been effectivly trained basicly for turnement compitition has no Idea that there is a whole range of much more effective techniqes and or aplications in the kata they have been tought if they only aply them properly. this kind of thing leads to people who do get hurt in a self defence situation and blame the system rather then themselves and perhaps their instructor for not training them better.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

Indeed, chinto, you and I seem to be kata lovers. I know one of the most important things for me when choosing a karate school is how well they train their kata. I'm definitely not saying that it's essential for good karate as some good schools don't teach it or have little emphasis on it. I don't go to karate to learn JKD. I do that on my own. I find karate has preserved a beautiful piece of okinawan, japanese and even chinese history. Ancient, effective wisdom. I like the old ways. I like the idea of training in the old ways. I think people had harder lives and were made out of tougher stuff back then, of course, I wasn't around back then...

 

[Victor Smith]

Steel Tiger,

For your original question I think you may be focusing on the wrong aspect of the Doctor's opinion.

Many in the Medical profession have problems with Boxing (and similar head impact sports) because of the body of evidence that long term concussive impacts to the head have detrimental effects in human development (with even greater effect in the young).

I think his use of karate, assuming he's talking about point competition, as being safer is just that without head impact being the purpose, there would be less long range problems for the majority of practitioners. Obviously he's not talking about the range of other venu of karate competition where head impact is very much the case.

I'm quite sure getting our head's banged up is not good at any age, but I can clearly see the problems that permitting the young to do so may be even more dangerous.

Any of our opinions, wants or desires about what style of study or competition we may wish to have, has no impact on the reality of what the Medical profession has documented.

What awareness the Doctor has of karate might just be what he's been exposed to. In my experience the general public knows next to nothing about what really is occurring in the martial world, unless they bump into it on a personal basis, such as if someone's child takes karate and participates in point tournaments.

 

[Zero]

Steel Tiger, maybe you and many of the others who responded to your coments actually got the wrong take on the doctor's statement and he has more knowledge regarding the fighting styles than you give him credit.

Boxing as a ring sport with professional gloves of 10oz with a strong focus on head strike induced KOs over 8 - 12 rounds can absolutely pummel the brain. With the gloves it means that both the fists and the head can soak up and take many more hits (and therefore increased deep concussion to the brain) than fighting bare-fist or with MMA combat gloves.

In my experience and talking to my far more experienced trainers karate and other such styles is generally less damaging to the head as with a bare knuckle or foot/shin strike to the jaw/temple your opponent normally goes down in 1 or 2 good hits. Sure this is a sharp impact resulting in temporary concussion but the damage is often rather discrete and short-lived. With boxing the impact is spread out more and the focus of shock soaked up and dampened to a degree by the gloves. This results in a much longer and sustained punsihment to said head!! And generally over a fight that goes many rounds more.

So if this was the doc's point, then I'm totally with him on this. If on the other hand he was just referring to sport karate and flashy display competition then he's right too - these kind of competitions generally being a joke if you're after any form of full contact or realistic competition.

PS: boxing like so many of the styles that are now heavily sport related originated in finishing disputes between individuals in bloody gore with torn and broken knuckles and shredded faces (if you ever have to fight/box bare handed you'll soon learn it's no sport).

 

[Steel Tiger]

What awareness the Doctor has of karate might just be what he's been exposed to. In my experience the general public knows next to nothing about what really is occurring in the martial world, unless they bump into it on a personal basis, such as if someone's child takes karate and participates in point tournaments.

This is exactly what I was asking about, the public perception of Karate. This particular doctor, worried about the damage boxing can do, suggested a Karate tournament would be safer. Was this because there is a general (incorrect) belief that there is nothing harmful in Karate? Has sport Karate so coloured the whole art's public image?

Steel Tiger, maybe you and many of the others who responded to your coments actually got the wrong take on the doctor's statement and he has more knowledge regarding the fighting styles than you give him credit.

I don't think I did get the wrong take on what the doctor said. He quite clearly implied that he would prefer, and consider safer, a Karate tournament to boxing. What made me ask the questions I have, is a thought I had as to whether he was expressing a widely held view that Karate is some sort of play fighting while boxing is real fighting.

I know this to not be the case. But I was wondering about the image of Karate in the world, not so much the reality. Is it going the unfortunate way that TKD and gongfu have gone, to the point where they are considered a bit of a joke (not my own opinion I assure you) by some practitioners and many laymen?

 

[Sukerkin]

What an interesting read this thread had been . Thanks to all the conributors so far with the insights and views they have given :tup:.

Perceptions and actualities are always going to be at odds; for this you need look no further than boxing, now widely regarded as a sport whereas in fact is it such an effective martial art that the punching techniques in CMA and JMA were changed as contact with this WMA was made.

What I'm hinting at here is the flip-side of the threads OP in a way i.e. the trivialisation of Western martial arts in comparison to Eastern. But it is all part and parcel of the same 'problem' ... the 'sportification' of military combatives.

Noone with any sense of moral responsibility wants anyone to die whilst training in, or using in competition, the martial arts we study but the fact remains that that was the whole purpose of the arts (leaving aside the benefits to a persons nature that MA training can bring). Their purpose was a last ditch effort to stay alive when all other weapons are denied to you or have been lost.

'History' also tends to forget such little gems that it was in Victorian times in this country (England) that we had women fighting to the death with swords for entertainment of the crowds (and that children were kept from fractious crying with "Mothers Peace", an ingested infusion of opiates). Attitudes have changed as to what is acceptible, which is okay. What is a problem is the insidious undermining of the 'actualities' as they are replaced with media sound-bites.

Karate is not sport anymore than boxing was but if efforts are not made by those that appreciate this then soon it can be seen that karate will have a point-scoring-no-it-doesn't-hurt-anyone-honest fate awaiting it.

 

[TheOriginalName]

I'm only a newby to the art of Karate - so hopefully i might bring a different view from what has been expressed so far.

Whilst i have always had an interested in MAs my impression of Karate before i started training wasn't based on recent compititions or the like. It was based on main-stream movie of the 80s, mainly the classic "Karate Kid".
Whilst this doctor may actually know more than i am giving him credit for, i would suspect that he doesn't know much about karate at all.

I also would believe that he was not having a go at the art of karate. In fact we should take this as a compliment. It is widely known that karate is full-contact and designed to be devistating. The thing is i would be willng to bet that their are not many doctors that see serious long-term injuries from MAs. This is because whilst we do practise full-contact we do so with control - if you drop your guard i may release a punch but i'll stop short where as a boxer would not show such control.

Lets also take the other positive out of this story - that karate is seen by the public as an excellent way of improving self-estime and person control in all aspects of life.

As i opened with - i'm only a newby, so perhaps don't have the "connection" with the deeper meanings of the form that some of you have shown but hopefully what i've said may have been a slightly different spin for you all.

And in closing - the best thing we can do to continue to improve our public image is to get others involved. Nothing destroys wrong assumptions better than experience.

 

[chinto]

Indeed, chinto, you and I seem to be kata lovers. I know one of the most important things for me when choosing a karate school is how well they train their kata. I'm definitely not saying that it's essential for good karate as some good schools don't teach it or have little emphasis on it. I don't go to karate to learn JKD. I do that on my own. I find karate has preserved a beautiful piece of okinawan, japanese and even chinese history. Ancient, effective wisdom. I like the old ways. I like the idea of training in the old ways. I think people had harder lives and were made out of tougher stuff back then, of course, I wasn't around back then...

yes they were I think tougher then we are now, and well they knew that if their training failed them they and their familys were provably dead! So I know, and I have a hunch you would agree, that they were not into sport,games, or political corectness when it came to their familys safety.
For those reasons and some others I do look at how they train their kata. The old masters and men who trained back then knew it was win or die if they could not avoid the fight. They also knew that if they died their familys might be killed too. With that at stake they didnt teach or train in crap, usless stuff, or any thing that was not effective and efficent at all ranges. I think you and I know this and want that effectiveness and on top of that the history and tradition and other things that evolved for a reason, ....SURVIVAL, pure and simple.

That is what I personaly think a lot of the MMA and "reality training" types do not get. The old masters were not interested in sport, they could care less who would win in the 'octogon' or any ring with its rules and referree. They were concerned with survival, with their wives and children and themselves being alive at the end of the altercation and to hell with any one who attacked them!

OK, I jumped off my soap box, sorry about that, but, I just had to say it!

 

[chinto]

Steel Tiger,

For your original question I think you may be focusing on the wrong aspect of the Doctor's opinion.

Many in the Medical profession have problems with Boxing (and similar head impact sports) because of the body of evidence that long term concussive impacts to the head have detrimental effects in human development (with even greater effect in the young).

I think his use of karate, assuming he's talking about point competition, as being safer is just that without head impact being the purpose, there would be less long range problems for the majority of practitioners. Obviously he's not talking about the range of other venu of karate competition where head impact is very much the case.

I'm quite sure getting our head's banged up is not good at any age, but I can clearly see the problems that permitting the young to do so may be even more dangerous.

Any of our opinions, wants or desires about what style of study or competition we may wish to have, has no impact on the reality of what the Medical profession has documented.

What awareness the Doctor has of karate might just be what he's been exposed to. In my experience the general public knows next to nothing about what really is occurring in the martial world, unless they bump into it on a personal basis, such as if someone's child takes karate and participates in point tournaments.

yep, giota agree with you on that.

Most Doctors and other Medical professionals do not really know the spacifics of martial arts of any kind. they know what they see come into the Emergency Room (ER) and what they see when they are responding with the Ambulance, or on the wards in the hospital.

If you showed that same Doctor a real karateka doing any thing like what most of the old styles teach he would be horrified that "any child would be tought such mayham!" more then likely. But, like most who have maybe seen a pint turnement on TV they think that there is not the impacts, let alone the multiple blows cousing impacts, to the head that are comon in sport boxing.
I do wonder what that same Doctor would have said if he saw some of the bunkai for the diferen kata, and what the techniques are really intended to do to creat trauma to the human body when its for real..

 

[chinto]

Steel Tiger, maybe you and many of the others who responded to your coments actually got the wrong take on the doctor's statement and he has more knowledge regarding the fighting styles than you give him credit.

Boxing as a ring sport with professional gloves of 10oz with a strong focus on head strike induced KOs over 8 - 12 rounds can absolutely pummel the brain. With the gloves it means that both the fists and the head can soak up and take many more hits (and therefore increased deep concussion to the brain) than fighting bare-fist or with MMA combat gloves.

In my experience and talking to my far more experienced trainers karate and other such styles is generally less damaging to the head as with a bare knuckle or foot/shin strike to the jaw/temple your opponent normally goes down in 1 or 2 good hits. Sure this is a sharp impact resulting in temporary concussion but the damage is often rather discrete and short-lived. With boxing the impact is spread out more and the focus of shock soaked up and dampened to a degree by the gloves. This results in a much longer and sustained punsihment to said head!! And generally over a fight that goes many rounds more.

So if this was the doc's point, then I'm totally with him on this. If on the other hand he was just referring to sport karate and flashy display competition then he's right too - these kind of competitions generally being a joke if you're after any form of full contact or realistic competition.

PS: boxing like so many of the styles that are now heavily sport related originated in finishing disputes between individuals in bloody gore with torn and broken knuckles and shredded faces (if you ever have to fight/box bare handed you'll soon learn it's no sport).

Yes and No, In that if you look at boxing, bare knucke was a sport and also an art that used pain for the knock out. the main points besides the liver were the point between the uper lip and the nose, and the point just under the ear. that is why most of the very old sport boxers who fought bare knuckle usualy had the two frount teeth missing and collieflower ears.

The gloves are a major contributer to the brain trauma. there is no disputeing that at all! you can with a rapped hand and a heavy boxing glove hit the hard bone of the skull a lot harder with out injury to your hand then you would have with out either of them. Once again there is no disputeing that that is the reason that brain trauma is how modern boxing knocks people out. I can see and agree with the doctors concerns with any one in that kind of ring sport.

but to say that some how the techniques of the non sport modifed Karate is in any way "safer" is rediculous. That is like saying that a sporting rifle in 30-06 caliber is some how "safer" then say an M1 rifle that was designed as a battle rifle for the US Military. they both fire the 30-06 cartridge and both have the same basic balistics. If any thing Karate if it is tought properly is more likely to couse permenent injury. That does assume that you do not have rules that prevent the use of the techniques that any prize fight will have to outlaw. there are a lot of rule in the UFC and K1 and of coure the point ternements that either prevent use of the techniques that are most likely to injur and to finish the fight quickly, and in the case of the point turnememt prevent real contact. with this in mind the partisipants are indeed often safer from brain injury then they are in a "traditinional boxing match of 15 rounds with standing counts".

 

[chinto]

This is exactly what I was asking about, the public perception of Karate. This particular doctor, worried about the damage boxing can do, suggested a Karate tournament would be safer. Was this because there is a general (incorrect) belief that there is nothing harmful in Karate? Has sport Karate so coloured the whole art's public image?



I don't think I did get the wrong take on what the doctor said. He quite clearly implied that he would prefer, and consider safer, a Karate tournament to boxing. What made me ask the questions I have, is a thought I had as to whether he was expressing a widely held view that Karate is some sort of play fighting while boxing is real fighting.

I know this to not be the case. But I was wondering about the image of Karate in the world, not so much the reality. Is it going the unfortunate way that TKD and gongfu have gone, to the point where they are considered a bit of a joke (not my own opinion I assure you) by some practitioners and many laymen?

no , not a joke. But, I do think that meany when you mention a "karate turnement" think of the point matches. Most law enforcement and military take martial arts seriously, and most Emergency Room Doctors know very well how delicat a human life really is. I think its from the point of not having the heavy gloves and the standing 8 count and some other things that scare medics that he things it is less likely to lead to major trama. This of course is with his assumeing that there are a lot of rules agenst the kind of blows and locks, and traps, and throws, and other things that are tought in the traditional old school karate designed to damage, truamatize and rupture orgians, and the other techniqies that are designed to criple and kill and brake things. Orginazations like the UFC and K1 spacificaly forbid such things, and partly becouse with out them the fight might well only last about 3 seconds. non the less it has led to the impression that persision and controle and not injury is all that meany martial arts are about.

 

[Victor Smith]

I’m not sure there is much of a public perception of karate.

There is the constant onslaught of movie and tv karate that has no relation to reality.

There is some awareness of karate schools (especially those schools that give public demonstrations often perpetuating the same mythology about karate) and if a family member participates they may have seen some tournament karate, most often point sparring. But on the whole the public neither worries about karate much and most often sees it today as a youth activity just like dance classes.

BTW, today on Okinawan 75% of the karate students are youth too, from about 0% in 1972. Today’s perceptions are often a world wide situation.

Let’s look at it clearly.

Pre 1900 there was almost no karate, just a small group of private practitioners. There was no sport version of sparring. There was almost no violence on Okinawa that required karate-ka to defend their families. They were part of the Japanese empire, and karate developed by members of the elite classes for their own reasons. Almost the only thing we can say for sure is that the primary training tool was kata, and what practices were wrapped around kata study remain speculation.

Post 1900, there was some transfer of karate into the Okinawan equivalent of high school to prepare young men for the draft into the Japanese military. Only the elite sent their youth to school at that time, and the primary purpose wasn’t karate for self defense but for drilling practice to prepare them for boot camp.

Most Okinawan karate remained in small groups of study, but as time passed and the depression continued to hit Okinawa hard, more and more instructors tried their hand at training youth in school or after-school programs. There was some experimentation of sparring with Kendo gear but it did not become a universal practice, and karate remained primarily a kata study with subsidiary practices.

Karate also was exported around the world. First in the Okinawan disporia from depression, too much population not enough land, to communities that developed throughout the east (Singapore, Japan, etc.), Hawaii, South America. We know little about who did what.

More formally Karate spread to Japan into the University system, and it was organized for the needs of University students. As Japan was a civilized country it was not primarily done for self defense but hard adult training. In time the University system developed a way to practice sparring with a handful of karate techniques, and after WWII, this was exported to the world. In the USA those practices, with many variations, developed a wide range of practices. There never has been one universal sparring approach in the sport developed. No contact point sparring, light body contact point sparring, hard body contact point sparring, semi-pro sparring, full contact sport sparring, etc.

Then government regulation took hold. They looked at the growing karate industry and many states wrapped it into the Health Club industry requiring bonding insurance. That brought the insurance industry into the controlling hand. And sparring without very restrictive practices and full body gear became the rule to keep the insurance.

So point sparring was the logical conclusion as the insurance industry does not exist to pay out money.

Other sorts of sparring exist outside of that control, and PKA, or those who want to compete in MMW, whatever, exist too.

But the existence of sparring is a modern phenomena, and how far it goes depends on each groups rationale.

It is safe to say most people who practice are not doing so to risk injury playing any variation of a game, and will not compete. For those who do compete in harder and harder contact, there is not any public analysis of what the long term impact of those practices have on ones health in later years. They are mostly doing so at their own risk.

Separate has been the study of Kata technique application, the Japanese term is bunkai, but there was not a clear Okinawn term for such, as most of their practices were without any technical vocabulary, theirs was a non-verbal form of transmission. BTW the term ‘bunkai’ is a specialized usage in some but not all Japanese systems and it’s public usage is very different from it’s karate usage.

The potential range of any techniques application potential is often very vast, but as much of that usage will cause great damage to a partner, it often must be practiced slow and in a restrictive manner, allowing kata to be the training tool to learn how to develop full force. How any system or school approaches that study is their choice.

Technically one technique that can respond to any attack is theoretically all one ever needs. The larger study then becomes a growth for the practitioner potential.

There are a lot of valid ways to practice arts that are effective, but if they are a descendent of Okinawa karate their primary practice is kata. If it is not kata ,then it is something else, worthy but not karate, IMO.

 

[Zero]

but to say that some how the techniques of the non sport modifed Karate is in any way "safer" is rediculous. That is like saying that a sporting rifle in 30-06 caliber is some how "safer" then say an M1 rifle that was designed as a battle rifle for the US Military. they both fire the 30-06 cartridge and both have the same basic balistics. If any thing Karate if it is tought properly is more likely to couse permenent injury.

Perhaps you ridiculously misunderstood my point Chinto - I meant only danger to the brain through prolonged and ongoing impact. I never meant that a karate or any other martial technique is 'safer' than a boxing punch - it's obvious to any one who has actually fought full contact that a shin kick to the temple/head or elbow to the jaw is going to do a lot more 'one off' damage than a glove clad punch. However, generally in my experience of fighting full contact on the receiving and delivering end, an effective strike - or couple of hits - to a nerve centre results in a KO or TKO. WHile there may be more superficial damage such as torn flesh, broken jaw, popped eye, the trauma is over quick. I feel that generally there is a far greater risk of brain damage related to boxing - having had a broken jaw, I'd rather have had that any day than to lasting brain damage!!!

I'm only talking about brain damage or sanctioned fights - not regarding on the street or unfettered martial moves such as knife hand throat/osophagus strikes, eye gouges etc.

 

[chinto]

but to say that some how the techniques of the non sport modifed Karate is in any way "safer" is rediculous. That is like saying that a sporting rifle in 30-06 caliber is some how "safer" then say an M1 rifle that was designed as a battle rifle for the US Military. they both fire the 30-06 cartridge and both have the same basic balistics. If any thing Karate if it is tought properly is more likely to couse permenent injury.

Perhaps you ridiculously misunderstood my point Chinto - I meant only danger to the brain through prolonged and ongoing impact. I never meant that a karate or any other martial technique is 'safer' than a boxing punch - it's obvious to any one who has actually fought full contact that a shin kick to the temple/head or elbow to the jaw is going to do a lot more 'one off' damage than a glove clad punch. However, generally in my experience of fighting full contact on the receiving and delivering end, an effective strike - or couple of hits - to a nerve centre results in a KO or TKO. WHile there may be more superficial damage such as torn flesh, broken jaw, popped eye, the trauma is over quick. I feel that generally there is a far greater risk of brain damage related to boxing - having had a broken jaw, I'd rather have had that any day than to lasting brain damage!!!

I'm only talking about brain damage or sanctioned fights - not regarding on the street or unfettered martial moves such as knife hand throat/osophagus strikes, eye gouges etc.

My appoligies, I did missunderstand you. Yes I would have to agree that you are correct in that respect with out question. the gloves and hand wraps resulted in the development of a style of boxing for sport that does indeed do more long term brain damage as the KO is usualy from brain injury by contraque. ( the brain impacting the skull by 'sloshing')

I have known medical Doctors who really would advicate the removel of the gloves and hand wraps for boxers on the grounds that that way the injurys would be superficial in genreal insted of truamatic brain injury, usualy small and meany over time, but still brain injury.

 

[Patrick McCarthy]

....Also just a thought on Patrick McCarthy. I have been to a number of his seminars (5 or 6 I would say) as he was a friend of my old instructor. He has a lot of historic knowledge but as far as bunkai and application his knowledge is limited as far as the bunkai from past masters goes etc. We were doing some bo drills one day with him when he showed us an extremely dubious move. I questioned my own instructor over it who later asked Patrick, who admitted he had made it up to fill a gap in the drill he didn't have. He lost me right then and there. He also still talks about the habitual acts of physical violence etc. Nothing has changed and he is still repeating the things he was saying 10 years ago with nothing new to add. If anyone is to take karate forward and united it is not him. Cheers Sam:asian:

Sam,

Although I have been a registered subscriber here for sometime I rarely have the luxury of reading many of the posts. I found yours today. Thanks for sharing your opinion. I have a couple of questions for you:

a. Which of my seminars have you attended?
b. What was the 'dubious' technique, and, under what circumstances did I teach it?
c. Who's your instructor that I allegedly revealed such a thing to?
d. What is it about the HAPV that you find so useless, especially when it has found such widespread support eslewhere?

Finally, if folks like me 'ARE NOT' destined to help move this art forward can you describe what experience you possess, or, how, after a couple of seminars, you're able to determine this?

Thank you for your time.

Patrick McCarthy

 

[Gordon Nore]

I think too much is being read into the good doctor's statement... When you train in boxing, apart from the cardio knock-offs, the expectation is that you will box. You will get in the ring and hit someone and get hit.

I think the doctor assumes that a karate teacher teaching kids will be teaching self-defense, including control and avoidance.

For younger fighters, I agree that strikes to the head should be pulled as a rule. We don't train our kids for tournaments, but one of the rules is no contact to the head or face when we spare. (The adults play a little rougher.) Now that's different to me from flippy unfocused technique that serves only to get points.

 

[Harley_Ninja237]

in pt karate they just chase you around with a leg or throw a punch and run away happy they got a point...
there is bare knuckle karate though that stuff is brutal

 

[exile]

in pt karate they just chase you around with a leg or throw a punch and run away happy they got a point...
there is bare knuckle karate though that stuff is brutal

Harley—are you thinking of Kyokushin?

 

[Brian S]

Unfortunately today's karate is viewed as an afterschool program where kiddie games are played, a way to get in shape/physical fitness, a moneymaking endeavor, and non-offensive anti-violent tippy tappy mcdojo crap.

Let's all dress up like peacocks and flaunt our certificates and memberships!!! YAY!!!

I'm having a bad view of what it has become these days. I'm quite unhappy about it as you can tell.