Karate vs. the Knife.

[RyuShiKan]

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I have to agree with my Sifu...

Something I think most folks forget is that the typical idiot we are up against is not a trained martial artist. The "bad guy" is unlikely to have the discipline, money, dedication or time to put into training in martial arts, regardless of style.
So training against a sai, bo, nunchaku or tonfa wielding attacker, though a faultless practice in and of itself, would be completely different than dealing with a box cutter weilding, frightened sociopath bent on separating you from your wallet.

I have to echo those sentiments.
Most nunchaku wielding numnuts do the “Bruce Lee” version with the weapon which is not that difficult to defend against. In fact I would rather face him than the guy with the box cutter any day.

Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I think that if we are going to classify styles into MMA, TMA, etc., we need to define TMA in more detail, to include traditional arts that make use of continual development to deal with advances in technology (just as our archaic ancestors did to deal with the use of weapons instead of simple bare hands), and those that have decided to focus on preservation of the ancient techniques instead. In the latter case, arts such as iaido, kendo, kobudo come to mind.

Again I agree.
Using Kobudo as a practical weapon art today doesn’t make much sense.
However, the lessons learned from training in Kobudo are useful in empty hand encounters. (Footwork/hand motion/balance/timing/power etc)
Heck, just training with a weapon in your hand is good for muscular development if nothing else.

 

[IMAA]

quote: Originally posted by Yiliquan1
I have to agree with my Sifu...

Something I think most folks forget is that the typical idiot we are up against is not a trained martial artist. The "bad guy" is unlikely to have the discipline, money, dedication or time to put into training in martial arts, regardless of style.
So training against a sai, bo, nunchaku or tonfa wielding attacker, though a faultless practice in and of itself, would be completely different than dealing with a box cutter weilding, frightened sociopath bent on separating you from your wallet.


I agree to a certain point with this, however thier are alot of THUGS / Gangsters / Common Punks who don't have any idea or degree of understanding how to use a weapon to harm someone, but one thing that has always kinda bothered me in a way, is " how easy would it be for them to learn"? VIDEO's are put out all the time so someone can make a quick dollar and teaches techniques on knife fighting or weapon fighting and that video could easily get into the wrong hands ie. Thugs, Gangsters. And Alot of them do this. I work in corrections and see it all the time...so it pays to have some idea of knowledge behind how to defend against someone that is skilled. Not just martial artist. Gang Bangers fight each other every day to hone thier skills of fighting just aswe as martialartist hone ours. Yet some train for sport, some for street and some for other martial artist. So if your gonna train martial arts and learn a defensive technique against any weapon I feel you must train it for all its worth so you can defend it against any situation. You never know if thier will be a time to defend against that weapon weather in tournament, or street survival. A trained knifer that has all intent to harm you, WILL! Just hard facts. you wont even see it coming.... thats the cold fact of a reality knife weilding attack. If you see it coming then I think the truth is he wants you to have a chance to defend against him or he really has no buisness with the knife. If he has intent to do you in, YOU WOULDNT EVEN SEE IT COMING......

Thanks
just my 2 cents worth.

Cory

 

[arnisador]

I was reading Hock Hocheim's CQC magazine the other day. He points out that George Harrison defeated a knife-wielding attacker, despite being injured. There's evidence that not all attackers are equally skilled--though someone attacking a celebrity is surely a special case.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Waving the knife is intended primarily to intimidate. The one who is going to stab you may not bother to show you the knife first.

 

[yilisifu]

True. In any encounter against a knife, you're probably going to get cut. A single thrust or cut causing immediate death (as seen in Hollywood) is extremely rare.
So the question is, after you've been hit and you're bleeding, how are you going to respond? Are you going to"turtle up" and let the aggressor finish the job or are you goingto fight back with everything you've got (and anything you can get your hands on)?

 

[chufeng]

A single thrust or cut causing immediate death (as seen in Hollywood) is extremely rare.

Say it ain't so...
Does that mean a shaken to the forehead won't work either?

But seriously, most knife injuries are superficial...the ones that penetrate the abdomen may eventually kill you (2 weeks later after you get septic from the spilled bowel contents into the peritoneal space)...even those that cause significant bleeding won't cause you to die right away...you've got plenty of time to kill the bastard that killed you...
The slash across the windpipe WILL NOT kill you...
Now if the carotids are hit, maybe...but the angle of attack is wrong with a lateral slash...

If you've got time (if you've got time...run...unless you are defending a loved one) take off your shirt or jacket and use it as a shield...wrap your arm and then hide behind your arm...

Expect to get cut...don't fear it, though, it doesn't hurt any worse than getting hit by a stick (I know, I've taken a hit from a big knife)...it may not bleed right away, either...so go after the sucker and take him out...

:asian:
chufeng

 

[vin2k0]

should i be worried if i do very little training against weapons?! i rarely train against knifes but wouldnt be confident in defending against one, and have never practised defending against any other type of weapon. Maybe my normal training could be applied to defending against weapons? But to what extent?

 

[Yari]

Originally posted by vin2k0
should i be worried if i do very little training against weapons?!

If you want to defend yourself against a we<pon, you should atleast try it, to see if your assumption of the situation is correct. And then you would know your answer.

/Yari

 

[vin2k0]

Originally posted by Yari
If you want to defend yourself against a we<pon, you should atleast try it, to see if your assumption of the situation is correct. And then you would know your answer.

/Yari

I have tried defending against a weapon, but only as some people have already discussed... in an un-realistic way. For example, against someone lunging with a knife.

 

[yilisifu]

We begin with standardized forms of attack, then move to more freestyle-type defensive maneuvers. There are a few principles involved to which students must adhere, and the training is effective.

 

[James Kovacich]

Originally posted by yilisifu
We begin with standardized forms of attack, then move to more freestyle-type defensive maneuvers. There are a few principles involved to which students must adhere, and the training is effective.

If I were to sum up the way I teach and practice, YOU JUST SAID IT!!:asian:

 

[moromoro]

against a highly skilled knife attacker empty hands defense is almost impossible regardless of the art

 

[arnisador]

against a highly skilled knife attacker empty hands defense is almost impossible regardless of the art

That's a common opinion in the FMA, and I agree. But I find that Karateka are less likely to think so!

 

[jujutsu_indonesia]

That's a common opinion in the FMA, and I agree. But I find that Karateka are less likely to think so!

As a person I agree with the FMA guys that it is impossible to defend empty-handed against a guy trained in FMA-style knifes.

Nevertheless, Wado-ryu Karate-Do does have a set of techniques (10 basics, with 3-5 henka each) to defend against SINGULAR knife attacks, it's called Tanto Dori no Kata.

On the other hand, many Wado-ka told me that these knife defenses came not from Karate but from Yoshin-ryu Jujutsu, Wado-ryu inherited it from GM. Otsuka (the founder), so we're back into square one

 

[TimoS]

In our karate we have 10 defenses against knife attacks. Most of them have the attacker lunging at us (some don't). Personally, I wouldn't want to try my luck with those against anyone wielding a knife, in real life that is (during practise and especially during belt examinations upper belts have to defend against a sharp knife), but then again I view those mostly as training tools that develop footwork, locks etc. and maybe as something that could be used in a tight spot. Hope I never need to find out if those really work

 

[arnisador]

You train with a live blade?!? That's living dangerously!

 

[TimoS]

You train with a live blade?!?

Sensei insists, so we comply No accidents so far, but you have to be 2. kyu, or testing for it, before you have to defend against a live blade. That gives you typically 2 - 3 years of training.

The reason behind his insistence is, as I've understood it, that with a wooden knife your reactions aren't the same. E.g. in tankensabaki 2 defender turns the knife hand towards the attackers throat to unbalance him (a bit hard to explain). Now, if the attacker has a wooden knife, his reactions aren't the same as when a live blade is used. When a live blade is approaching your throat, you instinctively pull back your head. As you do this, you eventually unbalance yourself. Naturally, we don't do this stuff at full speed

 

[tellner]

As a person I agree with the FMA guys that it is impossible to defend empty-handed against a guy trained in FMA-style knifes.

Very difficult, but not impossible. The moment you say it's impossible to defend against XYZ you have said that you are willing to give up and die. That's not a very good mindset to have going into a fight.

 

[tellner]

Sensei insists, so we comply No accidents so far, but you have to be 2. kyu, or testing for it, before you have to defend against a live blade. That gives you typically 2 - 3 years of training.

The reason behind his insistence is, as I've understood it, that with a wooden knife your reactions aren't the same. E.g. in tankensabaki 2 defender turns the knife hand towards the attackers throat to unbalance him (a bit hard to explain). Now, if the attacker has a wooden knife, his reactions aren't the same as when a live blade is used. When a live blade is approaching your throat, you instinctively pull back your head. As you do this, you eventually unbalance yourself. Naturally, we don't do this stuff at full speed

There are times when it is useful to make things more dangerous. Regular force-on-force training with sharp knives is stupidly dangerous.

 

[arnisador]

Very difficult, but not impossible. The moment you say it's impossible to defend against XYZ you have said that you are willing to give up and die. That's not a very good mindset to have going into a fight.

I agree. On any given day, anything can happen, and one may be able to escape and live to tell the tale at the least. But, a trained knifer is an extremely dangerous opponent. Frankly, a dedicated knifer is very dangerous--if he is willing to take a shot to get in a stab, it's likely to be a bad day.