Karate vs. the Knife.

[arnisador]

There are times when it is useful to make things more dangerous. Regular force-on-force training with sharp knives is stupidly dangerous.

I don't think partner training with a live blade is a good idea. For added realism we often use aliminum training knives, which look real and have that metal feel. There's also the Shockknife, of course! I find that training with a trusted and honest partner works well for me.

 

[Flying Crane]

I have recently reorganized and streamlined my kenpo curriculum (this was discussed in other threads, so I don't want to rehash it all here) but one of the things I did was to eliminate almost all of the knife defenses. I think they were very very dangerous and would probably get you killed. There were only one or two things that I felt had a nugget of promise, so I kept them. All the others, out the door with the rest of the trash.

I don't think it is impossible to defend against a knife wielding opponent, but I think it is very dangerous and for most people, unlikely to be successful. I dont hold any personal fantasies about this, and I certainly know which group I belong to.

 

[chinto01]

I do not want to sound like the party pooper here but have you considered looking for another training school just in case TimoS? The insurance company will have a field day with this if someone gets hurt at our dojo while training with live blades.

in the spirit of bushido!

Rob

 

[TimoS]

I do not want to sound like the party pooper here but have you considered looking for another training school just in case TimoS?

No, because quite honestly this is one of the best, if not the best, sensei around here.

 

[Flying Crane]

I do not want to sound like the party pooper here but have you considered looking for another training school just in case TimoS? The insurance company will have a field day with this if someone gets hurt at our dojo while training with live blades.

in the spirit of bushido!

Rob

ya got a good point here. He may be the best sensei around, but one nasty injury with a live blade, and I'll bet his financial woes force him to shut down. Leave it to the insurance companies to spoil all the fun, but it's a fact of life.

Additionally, what if someone actually got killed or maimed? how's that for spoiling the fun...

 

[The Kai]

If thet are all adultd and they know that they can opt out of any phase of the training, well, let em' train

 

[eyebeams]

I think the problem is that modern karate bunkai are too influenced by jujutsu and Japanese martial arts, where committed attacks are a large part of the preparatory training.

The techniques ought to be much more proactive, starting with adopting a proper posture to recieve an attack. Since a blade often comes out of nowhere, you need to stand at an angle that creates affective distance when a suspicious person closes in.

Receiving techniques are also designed to present minimum exposure of the limbs to injury by presenting the bony side to the attacker.

It's all still very chancy, but one effective defense I've worked against a rubber knife is gedan barai/ura zuki using sen no sen, against a stab for the belly (coming in at about 8:00 from the defender's vantage point). You *immediately* (attack as soon as it is presented, because you will execute during its extension) press the weapon arm and hit while moving forward. From there you can run away by moving the the right side or attempt to apply a restraint. One of the better ones looks like the awful, awful "X- block," but isn't. It's more like the FMA idea of controlling the weapon by attacking at two different angles.

This is different than defending step through thrust with a step and block. It's proactive and explosive. It *still* doesn't work all the time; luck is a big deal. Plus, the danger is that your commitment creates the problem, when you could have run away. Then again, if you run, you might get stabbed too.

 

[Sensei Paul Hart]

I think that the problem with most of the defense applications, be it empty hand or weapons is that Karate is no longer a fighting art to most, but a sport and a thing we teach our children. The post about using other weapons, specifically the Sai, had some validity in that if you learn to defend against all weapons and you learn also to use all traditional weapons, the weapons on the street will fall into some category in which you have knowledge. A belt? How about a chain whip. A Knife? There are so many bladed weapons, we could go Chinese here or stick with a Japanese Tanto. Do we really think the warriors of yesterday were not prepared if they lost their weapon to defend with the bare hand?

Unfortunately most styles are a shell of the fighting art Karate use to be, IMHO. It falls on us to change that back. Just as the Yin/Yang constantly flows one to the other we should try to allow are art to flow back to a more effective time. Vince Morris, an excellent Shoto stylist is doing this right now. If you have access to the old ways do some research and find out whats missing.

 

[chinto]

against a highly skilled knife attacker empty hands defense is almost impossible regardless of the art

agenst a skilled user of most weapons, if you are unarmed you are provably screwed! put something between them and you and run like hell.

there are techniques that will work agenst most people with a knife, but it will not be like the movies. I was told long ago if a blade is involved you will get cut minumum, so if you can run away... run like hell. but if you can't run, and cant hide? got nothing to loose, take the man out. dispatch him as fast as you can. can I take the avaridge street punk with a box cutter/sheet rock knife? provably. could i take a skilled FMA or other blade trained man with a bolo or other blade he has trained long and hard with? I dont know.. quite posibly not. the big thing is that most knife altercations are ambushes. If you are ambushed with a knife .. especialy if the knife man is trained, you will provably never see the blade till its in your annatimy and or cut you badly. people who are serious and trained tend to from what I know of it, do NOT wave the blade around like in west side story. they try to not let you know there is a knife involved..enless its a bolo or large blade like that, and then well when you see it its already in the slash or thrust and provably to late to do any thing but try and get out of the way!

 

[chinto]

ya got a good point here. He may be the best sensei around, but one nasty injury with a live blade, and I'll bet his financial woes force him to shut down. Leave it to the insurance companies to spoil all the fun, but it's a fact of life.

Additionally, what if someone actually got killed or maimed? how's that for spoiling the fun...

Oh ya, insurance will be impossible to get for him I am sure if some one gets any kind of deep cut.

If some one gets killed or maimed, well most hospitals are requiered to report any knife wound that is not " I cut my finger with the kitchen knife" kinda thing. and a death or maiming will defenently get law enforcement and all kinds of things involved. not a happy thing no matter how it ends up.

 

[Em MacIntosh]

I think the biggest problem with knife defense in traditional karate, (or any other system I've seen first hand) is that they don't have the aggressor attacking with a knife properly. Anyone who's half good with a knife won't let you know they've got it until it's in you. You also have to wonder what constitutes successful defense against a knife attack. Without a cut? Good luck. I'd feel successful if I had enough left in me to crawl to a hospital or call an ambulance. Can you take the pain of the first stab and still fight back? How about the next one? My guess is that you'll keep fighting because you have no choice, but pain takes a lot of energy out of you once the adrenaline has done all it can. First choice is always to run, second choice would be improvised weapons, third choice isn't somewhere I want to go and I hope I never found out. A jacket is a good improvised weapon. A belt can work too if you're quick.

 

[chinto]

I think the biggest problem with knife defense in traditional karate, (or any other system I've seen first hand) is that they don't have the aggressor attacking with a knife properly. Anyone who's half good with a knife won't let you know they've got it until it's in you. You also have to wonder what constitutes successful defense against a knife attack. Without a cut? Good luck. I'd feel successful if I had enough left in me to crawl to a hospital or call an ambulance. Can you take the pain of the first stab and still fight back? How about the next one? My guess is that you'll keep fighting because you have no choice, but pain takes a lot of energy out of you once the adrenaline has done all it can. First choice is always to run, second choice would be improvised weapons, third choice isn't somewhere I want to go and I hope I never found out. A jacket is a good improvised weapon. A belt can work too if you're quick.

yep, that is true.. a good knife man will provably only let you know he has the blade as it goes into your body... at least that would tend ot be his or her real ambition in using it. after all if you dont know there is a knife till its in you.. how do you defend agenst it?.. but if you know there is a blade involved your chances of survival go up astronomicaly as aposed to ambush where you have no clue of the threat present. I have had a cop tell me that good knife men love an ambush and hate a fight.