karate/ taekwondo differences

exile

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There are also a whole range of open hand and finder techniques in Shotokan Karate, I've not come across much more than nukitae (knife hand strike) in TKD though could be there, I just have not seen them.

Palm heel strikes, both with fingers retracted and with fingers extended, disguised as a spearhand; face claw-strikes with spread fingers aimed at the eyes; flat-hand slaps to the ear/temple; half-fist strikes (open hand, fingers bent so the middle knuckle is the striking surface, aimed at the throat, spearhand to the base of the throat... and more... are all part of the technical repertoire of TKD. We train them and we practice them.

Another large difference ( of which many find hard). Is that Shotokan is trationally practised very low to the ground. Strong, low, pounding stances are the secret to Shotokan. "Beware of the shotokan man. Why, Because he trains low". Training logo gives you increbible speed and power when stood up right. You'd train low, stand high in real situations by which time you are well prepared with huge leg muscles and excellent speed.

This isn't a function of the system per se, it's a function of how you train, no? There are ways to get powerful leg muscularity and considerable speed that don't depend on training low, and if you watch some of the top TKD competitiors, you'll see as much speed as you could want. And I say this as someone who has no interest in sport TKD.

No doubt I'm slightly bias to Shotokan as it has long been a passion of mine, though I have tried and give merrit to many other systems. Many shotokan classes today do not train as hard as I would like, though that being said some still find it hard. I feel TKD is an excellent system for those wishes to practise marial arts in a fun, friendly, sincier enviroument that don't want to walk out of each lesson with bruised forearms and the rest. Shotokan is a great system for the same sincier enviroument possible slightly more trational. TKD is a bit more standardised than Shotokan though still has plenty of trational and diversity there to interest you.

Again, I think you're talking about training, and how people choose to spar. If you're training TKD for street defense, you aren't doing anything like kumite or standard sport-TKD sparring; you're training application of the system to defense against grabs, roundhouse punches to the head, head-butts and other typical violence-initiators. You aren't having fun, or being especially `friendly'; you're practicing throat strikes with knifehand and forearm, strikes to the face, pins to control the attacker to set up knee kicks to the abdomen, and elbow strikes to the face (and, if the attacker's head can be forced low by a controlling move based on a wrist or elbow lock, to the back of the neck as well, which will most definitely end the fight). This approach to TKD is certainly traditional: it was the fighting system of the RoK military in two wars, and was feared—with good reason—by the South's communist enemies (see this for more detail and documentation). So far as I know, it's the only variant of karate (I consider TKD to be the Korean development of Japanese karate, just as Shotokan or Wado-Ryu are Japanese developments of Okinawan systems, themselves syntheses of Chinese chuan fa styles, native combat methods and Japanese samurai bujitsu theories brought over by the Satsuma warlords) ever adopted as the battlefield combative training for an entire national army. The technical resources that made TKD so damaging are still part of its content. And as for conditioning... a lot of experienced TKDists train their force delivery via multiple board breaking; the strikes those TKDist are able to deliver as going to be perceived as anything but `fun' and `friendly' by anyone unfortunate enough to be on the receiving end of one of them.

I think part of the problem is that there is a systematic ambiguity which arises when ever you use the name of some particular martial art. That name denotes a set of techniques, and a theory of combat often (though not always) encoded in formal patterns that integrate these isolated techniques as applications of certain strategic principles and tactical methods. But the name also identifies what you might think of as the current `state of the art', including how that art is trained. There's plenty of soft TKD training that goes on; but that's true for Shotokan as well; read anything by Iain Abernethy or any of the other British Combat Association karatekas, and you'll notice that time after time they compare the `alive', unscripted, realistic training with totally noncompliant partners they advocate with tradition kihon/kumite-based training. The two cases are very similar. Take someone from a `hard' TKD school, say one of the Song Moo Kwan dojangs, and compare them with someone from a Shotokan McDojo, and the picture you paint will still fit, except it will be Shotokan which is `fun and friendly' and TKD which sends its practitioners home with major bruises, or to the doctor or the emergency rooms with fractures.

What I'd like to do is eliminate this variable, the different approaches to training, from the comparison, because it's not an inherent part of the technical content of either art, and therefore will give a distorted picture. It seems to me far more productive to compare, example, how each of the two arts equips a skilled practitioner to handle a series of commonattacking moves by an untrained, but dangerously violent assailant. A roundhouse punch is thrown at your head, with or without a set-up grab: what do you do? That sort of thing. I strongly suspect that if you do that sort of comparison consistently, you'll find little difference amongst Tang Soo Do, Taekwondo, Shotokan, and maybe a couple of other styles.

It would be a very interesting and useful exercise to carry out, but to do it right, you'd need a number of practitioners at the same advanced level of training, and a couple of days to experiment with how they responded to `live' attacks (by the same group of ukes, to control for as many variables as possible). In the absence of that kind of relatively controlled experiment, a good deal of all all this discussion probably has to count as somewhat-informed guesswork...
 

chinto

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I would agree with most of that, though disagree with the high kick comments. It is very true that TKD concentrates alot more on kicks than they do on punches but I think it's too easy to assume Karate works the other way. Shotokan Karate has a multitude of kicks, any of which can be performed at head level (any higher than your opponants head and it's not needed)

TKD form is very similar and seems to be largely based on Shotokan 'Kata', so in form/kata the difference is very small. Obviously as already mentioned, punching in Karate is a big deal, possible more than TKD.

Another point previously made was looking at the sport aspect of TKD. Karate can have a very active sport side to it, this depends on the association that the Shotokan club falls under. What association was it, btw?

The difference in Shotokan from many other Karate systems and TKD systems is that Shotokan is intended to be a very hard, external system. There is little to no deflections. Either totally avoid the strike or take the strike and turn impact into devistation. When Shotokan was founded by Funakoshi Sensei all of its original basic blocks were developed as breaking techniques. A trational Karate-Ka would conition their arms, fists, fingers, wrists and so forth so that even the most basic of blocks would disable their attacker by means of bone breaking, with little (if any) damage to the Karate-Ka. Obviously today Shotokan Karate in classes in the west does not have the brutality it once did. But that is in a class.. many Karate-Ka's still take conditioning very seriously and as a result of learning the correct technique in class, can apply to it devastating effect in the real world. There are also a whole range of open hand and finder techniques in Shotokan Karate, I've not come across much more than nukitae (knife hand strike) in TKD though could be there, I just have not seen them.

Another large difference ( of which many find hard). Is that Shotokan is trationally practised very low to the ground. Strong, low, pounding stances are the secret to Shotokan. "Beware of the shotokan man. Why, Because he trains low". Training logo gives you increbible speed and power when stood up right. You'd train low, stand high in real situations by which time you are well prepared with huge leg muscles and excellent speed.

No doubt I'm slightly bias to Shotokan as it has long been a passion of mine, though I have tried and give merrit to many other systems. Many shotokan classes today do not train as hard as I would like, though that being said some still find it hard. I feel TKD is an excellent system for those wishes to practise marial arts in a fun, friendly, sincier enviroument that don't want to walk out of each lesson with bruised forearms and the rest. Shotokan is a great system for the same sincier enviroument possible slightly more trational. TKD is a bit more standardised than Shotokan though still has plenty of trational and diversity there to interest you.

Just my 2 cents..
Cheers


all provably true in the styles mentioned. I am not a shotokan or TKD man. but I remember the moto of the military.. train like you fight, and fight like you train.... the okinawan styles train to fight the way they train, or at least we do. so we train and do things diferently then both TKD and Shotokan and most other of the japansesaified styles of Karate. this is becouse our doctrine is a bit diferent as the cultures of Korea and Japan are diferent from Okinawa... so to are their stature, experiances in combat, and even the tarain and size of the people on averidge.
I am not a native of Okinawa, but I train in a traditional Okinawan system that is optimized for combat and not for sport. This means that the aproch and the kata are " old school" and unmodified from what they were say in 1870 or so... and so predicated on the idea that you are training not for points, or for dominance, but for survival of an encounter that is likely to end in the death of one or the other of the combatents. THIS also means that the best defences will always be not being there for the fight! After all if you do fight you MAY DIE! ........ ( usualy considerd a bad thing by people who are not suicidal or crazy... so best to avoid a fight if you can.. if you can't, then make sure that the least ending is you take the basterd with you!)
 

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