Karate and Shortened lifespan?

[llbark]

Good to see the longer post from you. Just a couple of points of clarification given you raised them.

No, one of the authors does not work at AMGEN (a biotech company with an anti-inflammation drug). One of the authors (Dr Armstrong) did work at AMGEN about 20 years ago, long before that company was involved in selling inflammation drugs. Secondly, there is actually a bias in the book away from prescription drugs and instead the use of selective training and diet - focusing in on what promotes inflammation and what does not. There a couple of chapters on these things related to the data on lifespan and karate's physiological effects.

No it is not one person's opinion, the book is actually a collaboration spanning doctors from University Research and clinical practice (with a total of 6 contributing authors).

In your original quote, and others in this thread, people quote mean life expectancy - this is actually the wrong statistic to analyse in such studies (and the book goes through the basics of understanding that in the first few chapters). This is because mean life expectancy includes all those infants and childhood deaths and that pulls down the average age of death for adults who survive through that period (which obviously all karate masters did). The study does relate to the crude “mean data” in every case, but focuses more on the "life expectancy at age of death" statistics in given regions, which compares those that have survived to adulthood to see how long their lives are expected to be compared to others given the variables they encountered after getting through childhood (especially relevant in developing countries and for people born pre-WWII). A common mistake when people grossly try and interpret lifespan...

Also you mentioned that Okinawan Goju is worse than styles that do sparring - this is not in fact what the book stats found (it was different but not that way)...

Finally, I notice there is another thread in this forum on this topic with some interesting observations... http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...ate-and-Shortened-lifespan?highlight=lifespan

OK, I confess .. I haven't read the book and I have no intention of buying the book. What I did do was find the book on Amazon and read as much as was available. The book creates as many questions as it answers. The author works for Amgen, a drug company that produces an anti inflammatory drug. It also gives research grants. Not to take away from the content of the research but did the company contribute financially to the work?

I'll mention Sanchin kata as it is mentioned in the above post. The book talks about Sanchin as a number of variants but in the post it points out that Miyagi was one of the guys who died relatively early. Kanryo Higaonna, who was one of those who brought Sanchin to Okinawa from China, also died early at 62. Kanbun Uechi, the other to bring Sanchin back to Okinawa also died relatively early at 71. Yet they practised totally different variations of Sanchin and at greatly different levels of physical intensity. Gogen Yamaguchi practised an even more intense version of Sanchin and lived to 80. On those thoughts you could argue that the harder you practised Sanchin, the longer you live. However, Sanchin is an internal kata as the book points out and most people don't practise it with that in mind.

The information in the book linking inflammatory conditions to chronic disease states is interesting but nothing much seems to have come of that research in recent times. The demise of Vioxx and questions about Celebrex may have dampened the enthusiasm for research there. As to taking anti inflamatories on a regular basis? Not this little duck. The potential for side effects are way too high for me. But back to chronic inflammatory conditions. Sure, most of us that have been around for a while are carrying multiple injuries. But what of professional footballers? They have far more injuries than the average karateka. Same could probably be said for mountain bikers, and one the biggest causes of injury and death is horse riding, or perhaps not riding as head hits ground. Does kumite play a part? Sport based styles are far more likely to cop injury than the traditional styles that don't spar. So why would it be the case that Okinawan Goju which doesn't spar would be worse than so many others that do?

Please don't be so quick to criticise those of us posting. A book is just one person's opinion. I could well be convinced but nothing I have seen so far suggests to me that training a TMA is likely to reduce my lifespan. By the same token, I don't expect it to increase my lifespan either. What I do expect is for it to produce a higher quality of life for the time I continue to train.
:asian:

 

[K-man]

Good to see the longer post from you. Just a couple of points of clarification given you raised them.

No, one of the authors does not work at AMGEN (a biotech company with an anti-inflammation drug). One of the authors (Dr Armstrong) did work at AMGEN about 20 years ago, long before that company was involved in selling inflammation drugs. Secondly, there is actually a bias in the book away from prescription drugs and instead the use of selective training and diet - focusing in on what promotes inflammation and what does not. There a couple of chapters on these things related to the data on lifespan and karate's physiological effects.

No it is not one person's opinion, the book is actually a collaboration spanning doctors from University Research and clinical practice (with a total of 6 contributing authors).

With the book attributed to Dr Armstrong.

In your original quote, and others in this thread, people quote mean life expectancy - this is actually the wrong statistic to analyse in such studies (and the book goes through the basics of understanding that in the first few chapters). This is because mean life expectancy includes all those infants and childhood deaths and that pulls down the average age of death for adults who survive through that period (which obviously all karate masters did). The study does relate to the crude “mean data” in every case, but focuses more on the "life expectancy at age of death" statistics in given regions, which compares those that have survived to adulthood to see how long their lives are expected to be compared to others given the variables they encountered after getting through childhood (especially relevant in developing countries and for people born pre-WWII). A common mistake when people grossly try and interpret lifespan...

If my figures for life expectancy are flawed, perhaps you could list the 'real' figures for me. Life expectancy figures are used by WHO and all countries when discussing longevity. I'm not even sure that they are average age at death as various articles do talk of adjustments. However, The Okinawan Centarian study points out that the longevity of Okinawans as a whole is influenced be the genetic makeup of the long lived families. To me, that would suggest that if your family is not one of the long living ones, then you are going to be in a different cohort. That makes the figures I posted even more impressive. (I also looked at the mean figure for the guys I pulled up and it was by coincidence 77, same as the average.)

Also you mentioned that Okinawan Goju is worse than styles that do sparring - this is not in fact what the book stats found (it was different but not that way)...

Finally, I notice there is another thread in this forum on this topic with some interesting observations... http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/sh...ate-and-Shortened-lifespan?highlight=lifespan

That thread was a double post.

There is a lot in the book that you could query in light go more recent medical evidence. One of the guys quoted in the book is Dr Calib Finch. Now I have no doubt that he is a highly qualified gerontologist but some of the treatments he advocates in this article ... http://books.google.com.au/books?id...Q&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=dr caleb finch%

have been shown to increase the likelihood of cardiovascular events. All I am saying is despite the fact that there is a book out there making an interesting point of view, just because it is in print and just because there is a group of medical scientists proposing their point of view, doesn't mean that what it is saying is gospel.

Now the next interesting question is, what is your connection to this article? I'm intrigued that you would join the forum without introducing yourself, resurrect an old thread and take such a strong position.
:asian:

 

[llbark]

There is a lot in the book that you could query in light go more recent medical evidence. One of the guys quoted in the book is Dr Calib Finch. Now I have no doubt that he is a highly qualified gerontologist but some of the treatments he advocates in this article ... http://books.google.com.au/books?id...Q&ved=0CDQQ6AEwAg#v=onepage&q=dr caleb finch%

have been shown to increase the likelihood of cardiovascular events. All I am saying is despite the fact that there is a book out there making an interesting point of view, just because it is in print and just because there is a group of medical scientists proposing their point of view, doesn't mean that what it is saying is gospel.

Now the next interesting question is, what is your connection to this article? I'm intrigued that you would join the forum without introducing yourself, resurrect an old thread and take such a strong position.
:asian:

Just finished reading it in its entirety (after starting it a good while back), hence a relevant post for me today. I am a nurse by training who nowadays works in clinical trials. My stance is simply strong that people are not posting accurate reports/reviews that are informed. The data is what it is, I am not critiquing or taking a stance on its nature here, just stating that if one reads it you see the rigor in the methodology.

I don't think the authors of the book take a stance either, they state when/what circumstances karate does and does not seem to have an effect, suggest links based on the data compiled and a review of over 200 other publications and then suggest people be aware and ponder these links to tailor there own style/training. It does not suggest to "give up karate" as someone in this thread stated - it is about informed training.

Re your statement on genes, genes only account for about 25% of life expectancy (book reviews that research in depth,as do many other similar books) - but again your statement focuses on Okinawan genes, the study spans, Western and Mainland Japan as well, and different eras

WHO are often more interested in perceiving health/death across a nation, including young & old people in some reports, hence the mean age of death is used in those circumstances. Insurance agencies (life insurance groups placing their bet on what to charge for premiums) and clinical trials for age based studies (trying to work out whether someone should have died at that age, as is the point of this study of karate-ka) use "life expectancy at death". Again because the mean/median age of death is dragged down by infant/child deaths and that is not relevant to karate masters. Very important difference when looking at the data in such arguments.

 

[K-man]

Just finished reading it in its entirety (after starting it a good while back), hence a relevant post for me today. I am a nurse by training who nowadays works in clinical trials. My stance is simply strong that people are not posting accurate reports/reviews that are informed. The data is what it is, I am not critiquing or taking a stance on its nature here, just stating that if one reads it you see the rigor in the methodology.

I am not questioning the data, just the interpretation. As a nurse involved in clinical trials you would appreciate my comments on drug information. As this book is quite focused on inflammatory conditions leading to premature death I was interested to see the suggestion that statins might be used to reduce inflammation (not to mention delaying or preventing Alzheimer's). The problem here is that meta analysis shows that patients taking statins, who have never experienced a CV event, are at greater risk of CV events as a result of being on statins. The suggestion that taking NSAIDS to reduce the risk of death from inflammatory conditions is also interesting. A martial artist taking aspirin is not a real option and the long list of side effects from the other NSAIDS would not be a viable option from my point of view. Avandia is another drug suggested as an option and now the FDA is being questioned as to why Avandia was approved in the first place. All I am requesting is a questioning mind. The book makes conclusions that I question, that's all.

I don't think the authors of the book take a stance either, they state when/what circumstances karate does and does not seem to have an effect, suggest links based on the data compiled and a review of over 200 other publications and then suggest people be aware and ponder these links to tailor there own style/training. It does not suggest to "give up karate" as someone in this thread stated - it is about informed training.

And I am interested in taking their views into consideration.

Re your statement on genes, genes only account for about 25% of life expectancy (book reviews that research in depth,as do many other similar books) - but again your statement focuses on Okinawan genes, the study spans, Western and Mainland Japan as well, and different eras

Well, they do divide it equally between genes, diet and inflammation. My statement focuses on Okinawa because that is where karate originated. From there it went to Japan and then, after WWII, the rest of the world. It's difficult to equate Western karate with pre-war Okinawan karate and there are many other variables as well. I did include a couple of Japanese karateka in my list but the rest were all Okinawan and my list included guys that died pre-war.

WHO are often more interested in perceiving health/death across a nation, including young & old people in some reports, hence the mean age of death is used in those circumstances. Insurance agencies (life insurance groups placing their bet on what to charge for premiums) and clinical trials for age based studies (trying to work out whether someone should have died at that age, as is the point of this study of karate-ka) use "life expectancy at death". Again because the mean/median age of death is dragged down by infant/child deaths and that is not relevant to karate masters. Very important difference when looking at the data in such arguments.

My father died at 40, both my grandfathers died at about 65, two of my cousins died in their early 60's. I am 65. I have about 30 years martial arts training, I've carried joint injuries for years and I've lived with a chronic back injury since my days as a gymnast about 50 years ago. Based on history I am lucky to still be alive. Based on the theory in the book I should have died years ago.

I suppose I should say goodbye to all my friends here on MT because I could head off the the great training dojo in the sky any time.

 

[llbark]

My father died at 40, both my grandfathers died at about 65, two of my cousins died in their early 60's. I am 65. I have about 30 years martial arts training, I've carried joint injuries for years and I've lived with a chronic back injury since my days as a gymnast about 50 years ago. Based on history I am lucky to still be alive. Based on the theory in the book I should have died years ago.

I suppose I should say goodbye to all my friends here on MT because I could head off the the great training dojo in the sky any time.

Again, the drugs you mention above and your opinion of the book's statements on those drugs is wrong (because you haven't read the book). It does mention most of those drugs, reviews the medical literature as it relates them to health/karate and includes surveys on martial artists and their use of aspirin/NASAIDs. They do not broadly state that martial artists should ubiquitously take statins or aspirin - in fact quite the opposite.

You said you list "included guys that died pre-war" and the book did look at that cohort, but it focuses on post-war as that is more relevant to today's society (and again, your approx. conclusion aligns with theirs, but you quoted the incorrect statistic to focus on with "mean life expectancy" which includes infants/kids, rather than "life expectancy at age of death"). The differences in eras were intriguing and again it is not about one off peoples but rather averaged means, which allow us to decide "how to stack the odds in our favour or not".

 

[K-man]

Again, the drugs you mention above and your opinion of the book's statements on those drugs is wrong (because you haven't read the book). It does mention most of those drugs, reviews the medical literature as it relates them to health/karate and includes surveys on martial artists and their use of aspirin/NASAIDs. They do not broadly state that martial artists should ubiquitously take statins or aspirin - in fact quite the opposite.

You said you list "included guys that died pre-war" and the book did look at that cohort, but it focuses on post-war as that is more relevant to today's society (and again, your approx. conclusion aligns with theirs, but you quoted the incorrect statistic to focus on with "mean life expectancy" which includes infants/kids, rather than "life expectancy at age of death"). The differences in eras were intriguing and again it is not about one off peoples but rather averaged means, which allow us to decide "how to stack the odds in our favour or not".

You read the book so perhaps you could enlighten us with some of life's mysteries rather than just saying I am wrong.

 

[PhotonGuy]

Martial arts can sometimes shorten the lifespan due to the high demands it places on the body. Bruce Lee is a good example of that.

 

[K-man]

Martial arts can sometimes shorten the lifespan due to the high demands it places on the body. Bruce Lee is a good example of that.

Not sure that Lee is a good example. The cause of his death is at best uncertain. The most likely cause of death would seem to be a reaction to a pain medication that caused cerebral edema. Then again, there may have been other factors unrelated to MAs.
http://www.bruceleedivinewind.com/death.html
:asian: