Kamon BJJ/Wing Chun

[KamonGuy2]

Sifu Kevin Chan has opened up his new BJJ federation which is flying under the banner of the Gracie Barra (Roger Gracie academy)

The first class starts tonight at 6pm in Portsmouth (Fratton) UK

Straight after the BJJ there is a wing chun class also taught by Kevin Chan

Please visit www.kamonbjj.com for further details

 

[matsu]

look great setup. and checked out WC site- you in any of them there videeeeoossss mate?

matsu

 

[geezer]

Sifu Kevin Chan has opened up his new BJJ federation which is flying under the banner of the Gracie Barra (Roger Gracie academy)

The first class starts tonight at 6pm in Portsmouth (Fratton) UK

Straight after the BJJ there is a wing chun class also taught by Kevin Chan

Please visit www.kamonbjj.com for further details

Cool. Since Kevin Chan is a WC sifu too, am I right in assuming that his BJJ is informed by his WC background? That is to say that he would be uniquely knowledgable in coaching WC/WT stylists in making the transitions between their stand-up techniques and grappling. If so, I could imagine a big interest down the road in seminars by other WC-ers.

 

[Si-Je]

What? No...

What made him want to do that? Is BJJ popular in England?

 

[KamonGuy2]

Si-Je : BJJ is extremely popular in England. Especially with the talents of people like Roger Gracie and Mauricio Gomes (5 time world champion) who teach Kevin Chan and sometimes us

Geezer : Kevin Chan is one of the best guys to speak to on the transitions from wing chun to BJJ. We do a lot of clinchwork drills in class.
In all the fights I have had, it is obvious that fights close quickly (people grab you, clinch you). Sometimes they grab you. Sometimes you grab them in order to shut them down. If you have ever come across a huge streetfighter or yob who is working off pure aggression and throwing in windmills, you realise that trying to land a good punch is difficult, trying to defend is difficult. The easiest way is to shut them down in a clinch and then use your wing chun from that position. But the key is getting the clinch right, or else the guy will just use strength

Matsu - I'm the big fat guy in the Kamon Streetfighting video (the one knocked out by Kevin Chan's elbow). You can find it on youtube (just type in kamon and streetfighting). I'm not a pretty sight

 

[matsu]

Geezer : Kevin Chan is one of the best guys to speak to on the transitions from wing chun to BJJ. We do a lot of clinchwork drills in class.
In all the fights I have had, it is obvious that fights close quickly (people grab you, clinch you). Sometimes they grab you. Sometimes you grab them in order to shut them down. If you have ever come across a huge streetfighter or yob who is working off pure aggression and throwing in windmills, you realise that trying to land a good punch is difficult, trying to defend is difficult. The easiest way is to shut them down in a clinch and then use your wing chun from that position. But the key is getting the clinch right, or else the guy will just use strength"

very nice explanation mate.
sifu looks very sharp and crisp in technique. from a beginners viewpoint.
matsu

oh and you look scary as hell fella!!!:samurai::jaw-dropping: heehee

 

[Si-Je]

If you have ever come across a huge streetfighter or yob who is working off pure aggression and throwing in windmills, you realise that trying to land a good punch is difficult, trying to defend is difficult. The easiest way is to shut them down in a clinch and then use your wing chun from that position. But the key is getting the clinch right, or else the guy will just use strength

Sweetie, you can Dai-sau all day long against windmill punching.
If you heel kick at the same time that will kill much of the power in their "punching".
Plus, Dai-sau will open their vitals up to you, you'll have the centerline to punch, chop, elbow, knee, and kick all you like.

When you clinch you narrow your options for attack. Kinda like putting yourself in a Mexican standoff. Your both committed in grappling, so whoever shifts their their weight first risks being thrown, or re-directed to the opponent's advantage. Whoever lets go first is opening themselves up to the grapplers technique.

example: say they underarm hook you and clinch. Instead of fighting them for that position, trying to get your arms under their armpits, Just elbow the head, repeadedly if necessarily, jab the eyes, slap the ears, bite, head butt, (step on their foot as you do these things for a little extra "nasty" in your defense and move forward) palm the chin and move forward and up, (the body follows the head).
This would be a better defense especially on the street where their may be others attacking you. When you grapple and opponent, your committed to that ONE fight and fighter. If there's more people they have all the time in the world to stomp your head, kick, and hit you.

example: if they pin both your arms down and clinch, you still have your legs and feet, headbutt. You can heel kick from here, step on the foot as you head butt forward, knee the groin, slap or palm strike the groin, inside the theighs are always tender (give a mean pinch with a twist! lol! Works on every big guy I ever did that to!

See, for them to keep you pinned there's nothing they can really do to you at that point. For them to hurt you, their going to have to move, shift their weight, telegraph their intention, let you go to strike, change hand positions to get a joint lock. So, you can simply wait. Or, attack with your legs, hands, head and such. And when their body position changes, you take advantage of the moment.

 

[Si-Je]

Then, there's energy work. Cool stuff! Watch this little man re-direct a larger man's energy and force. He's not clinching, but you can see it better this way, and you can utilize the same basic concepts when your being clinched.

 

[Si-Je]

I'm the big fat guy in the Kamon Streetfighting video (the one knocked out by Kevin Chan's elbow). You can find it on youtube (just type in kamon and streetfighting). I'm not a pretty sight

Could you put a link to the video on? I've got dail-up, (ack!) and my browser isn't showing the menu on the left.

 

[matsu]

without hijacking this thread-perhaps i should start a new one

as a beginner i am unfamiliar with dai-sau

can you explain to me/show me?

many thanks
matsu

 

[matsu]

oops just realised big post on dai sau...... my bad.
matsu

 

[naneek]

i think its great if u can use both wing chun and bjj, it can only help in understanding a grapplers skill set, but if u wanna stay just pure wing chun thats great too, different strokes and all that jazz

 

[LoneRider]

Well, at the very minimum I think learning BJJ teaches you the grappler mindset on the general side and the groundfighting aspect. Combine that with Anti-Grappling taught in Wing Chun and this is a formidable element of fighting indeed. What with BJJ being rather popular these days, it wouldn't be a bad idea (me thinks) to know how possible adversaries train and fight.

In my case I intend to combine BJJ with Wing Chun/Muay Thai to do MMA competitions on an amateur basis, while still maintaining the WC for self defense.

 

[KamonGuy2]

example: say they underarm hook you and clinch. Instead of fighting them for that position, trying to get your arms under their armpits, Just elbow the head, repeadedly if necessarily, jab the eyes, slap the ears, bite, head butt, (step on their foot as you do these things for a little extra "nasty" in your defense and move forward) palm the chin and move forward and up, (the body follows the head).

example: if they pin both your arms down and clinch, you still have your legs and feet, headbutt. You can heel kick from here, step on the foot as you head butt forward, knee the groin, slap or palm strike the groin, inside the theighs are always tender (give a mean pinch with a twist! lol! Works on every big guy I ever did that to!
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This is where training with good BJJ guys really helps. You will never be able to headbutt a person who has underhooks on you - they tuck their head into your head and 'stick' with you. We do this all the time at Kamon
You won't be able to use your hands to attack (either in a strike or eye gouge etc) because you are sticking with them. Plus they will be initiating a takedown or hip toss or suplex from those kind of positions (or other nasty things), which means that you barely have time to even think about a headbutt.
Lastly, whatever, you do to them, they will do to you

Its a shame you are so far away. 10 minutes watching Sifu explain clinchwork would really shake up your wing chun

As for the link, I don't know it, but anyone who has access to youtube are free to post it here. Matsu??

 

[Si-Je]

I've sparred a bit with grapplers a couple of times, it IS good practice. But, just because we've successfully defended against grapplers using WC doesn't mean they were just "bad" at grappling. These people trained for years. Plus, I'd rather a grappler wear the helmet and face shield during practice. That way I can use most of MY technique to defend without hurting them.

I've seen videos of WC'ers and grapplers sparring (just to practice), sure, the WC guy gets taken to the ground. But the grappler wasn't wearing gear, and these guys were buddies, so without the head gear the WC'er couldn't practice his WC on the grappler.

We had many wrestlers, JKD guys, MMA, and grapplers all wear face shields when we teach them the anti-grappling or spar. That way we can show them how just punching in the head or face changes their direction for attack or defense without really hurting them.

Even if the power of my punch isn't strong enough to seriously hurt my opponent, it still thwarts their initial attack. (besides, if one punch isn't "strong" enough, I say give 'em twenty! lol!)
I know BJJ guys train to "take a hit or two" but, they really see the difference with the gear on.
Constantly striking keeps them from being able to organize their plan of attack. Plus, my fav, is the defense against one between your legs. You simply use basic stance to keep their weight off you and allows you to "keep your space" from them. Making it harder for a grappler or whatever to strike you, armbar, or choke you. That position I can even get in a good )Japanese) Ju-Jitsu arm bar if I wanted to.
But really, the WC you use from that distance is more effecient when it comes to exerting effort and energy in a fight.

Plus, say if someone attacks you on a bus. What would a grappler do while on their back in the isle of a bus? I know what I'd do. But coming from a strong Ju-Jitsu background, I'm assuring you that Ju-Jitsu, or even Judo would be ineffectual in that scenario. So, if anti-grappling or WC works just find in a street fight under almost all conditions, why can't it be applied in the ring, or on the matt?

Just my preference. I've got a bad back, and my neck got jacked up practicing Ju-Jitsu years ago. My hey day utilizing Ju-Jitsu is gone. I had to learn another way. I really wish I knew this stuff 10 years ago! I might have escaped an injury, and it would have come in handy when I had to use Ju-Jitsu to defend myself for real. (It totally failed the "practical" test! lol!)

 

[KamonGuy2]

Let me put it in a much much simpler way.

If wing chunners never got taken down (or hit so that they knocked someone out before they could take them down to the ground) don't you think every cage fighter on the planet would be living an breathing wing chun???

The sad fact is that it is not too hard to take someone to the floor
Most people think that a person attacking you will be front on. I have seen and experienced people grabbing and dragging you to the floor from behind or the side as well as in front. Sometimes you might trip if it is uneven surface or if there are obstacles in the way

But chunners still refute this and are in danger because of it. It is not just BJJ guys who drag you down, but bouncers, brawlers, street fighters.

All I would say is, prepare for the worst and your confidence will go through the roof

 

[Si-Je]

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This is where training with good BJJ guys really helps.
??

My hubbie has trained, sparred and such with black belts in BJJ. Equally big and strong as him, at time bigger. (That's hard for him to encounter since he's 6'4")

I've practiced on a couple of BJJ people that had at least a "purple" belt in the art of BJJ before they came to our school.

Once, one of our senior students just didn't show up to class for 8 months, we figured he was not interested anymore. He eventually came back, (he was a friend of ours too, probably why) and sparred with my hubbie. Both had head gear on, face shields and gloves, and my hubbies student and friend did his best to use BJJ on him. He failed, and Sifu Hubbie pinned him while explaining to him how to get out of holds, and such. (This was after they duked it out with each other pretty hard, male bonding or something. lol!)
And he showed him how he countered the BJJ. Our student tried to attack in a BJJ fashion again and was thwarted.
He started coming back to class regularly, and apologized for not coming back sooner, but the BJJ class made him sign a contract.
We weren't mad at him, we just asked him to let us know if he had any doubts or questions about the effectiveness of WC ever again and that we would teach him what he needed to know.

 

[KamonGuy2]

If that is true (and I'm not trying to besmirch your character by saying you’re lying), if you film it, you would get a lot of fame/money/respect from it

There are no clips on youtube of a wing chunner winning against a BJJ guy (well none that I’ve seen) and all those posts of why chun isn’t in the cage – you would destroy that argument with a vid clip of you holding your own against an MMA’er or BJJ guy

I have wrestled, grappled and fought many good BJJ guys and they are not that easy to go against. But if you insist that you (or husband, or any chunner) have held your own against a black belt BJJ guy then I would ask that you would post your vid link here

It would seriously alter my view of training

 

[dungeonworks]

Let me put it in a much much simpler way.

If wing chunners never got taken down (or hit so that they knocked someone out before they could take them down to the ground) don't you think every cage fighter on the planet would be living an breathing wing chun???

The sad fact is that it is not too hard to take someone to the floor
Most people think that a person attacking you will be front on. I have seen and experienced people grabbing and dragging you to the floor from behind or the side as well as in front. Sometimes you might trip if it is uneven surface or if there are obstacles in the way

But chunners still refute this and are in danger because of it. It is not just BJJ guys who drag you down, but bouncers, brawlers, street fighters.

All I would say is, prepare for the worst and your confidence will go through the roof

An excellent point. Calrson Gracie Jr. himself liked the idea of mixing Wing Chun principles into his GJJ ( http://www.everythingwingchun.com/Samuel-Kwok-Carlson-Gracie-Double-Impact-DVD-p/sk01.htm ). I would go also add that simple wrestling basics could also help in this respect. Things such as sprawling and the scrambling done in many situations are good stuff to know. Many wrestlers also have a good ability to get back to their feet as well.

 

[chisauking]

kamon guy sez: There are no clips on youtube of a wing chunner winning against a BJJ guy (well none that I’ve seen) and all those posts of why chun isn’t in the cage – you would destroy that argument with a vid clip of you holding your own against an MMA’er or BJJ guy

I think it's very foolish to compare different 'tools' for different things.

In all games, the rules favour the particular game in which one is playing in. For example, I would put all my money on Hagler when he was in his prime to win any BJJ champion in boxing. So, does that mean boxing is the ultimate fighting style? Would the same result occur in a fight when one's life depended on it in the street? Another example would be to put a boxer in a judo match with judo rules. Here, even Ali or tyson would lose.

One can easily see from my examples above that different rules favour different games, and you can't judge the effectiveness of a particular method when you a playing 1 game that favours certain methods.

Silly people say they haven't seen any wing chun practitioners beating BJJ's on utube. Well, one can argue just as well that one hasn't seen any BJJer beating a genuine wing chun practitioner on the street; or a genuine boxing champion; or choy lay fut; a millwall thug; gipsy fighter, etc., etc.

Basing one's reality on what they see or don't see on utube is just pure stupidity. One doesn't see a stomp kick breaking someone's knee, or thumbs digging into someone's eye, or claws ripping deep into someone's face, or a faact-sau to break someone's nose on utube, does that mean those techniques doesn't work? If you agree those techniques work, then how come we haven't seen them on K1, NHB, etc., etc.?

The answer is in one of wing chun's keun kuits: 'keun yau sum faat, lik yau day hay.' In other words, how much you want to fight. As much as I like kungfu, I can't bring myself to inflict so much injuries to a fellow human being just to win a silly 'game' to 'prove a point'. Take away the voilence, take away the 'intent' and put it in a game, and wing chun becomes nothing but pretty hand shapes.

People with genuine experience will know that fighting has a totally different meaning and is a completely differnt 'game' when one's life depends on it. In this 'arena', even BJJ has to change.

Of course, one can adopt wing chun for the 'game', but to me (and perhaps many others) that would defeat the ojective of wing chun to begin with, and, more importantly, impede one's development of one's wing chun skillset.

To me, the 'effectiveness & efficiency' of wing chun can only be judged when playing with no rules, and when the 'intent' is there.

each to thier own