Judo with all banned techniques

[kingofjong]

Hello

I was wondering what is the style of judo called with banned techniques like all leg locks and etc? Does any one teach that in the USA? I am referring to old school judo that is not guided buy any rules not completion judo. Is there no-gi version of it?

Thank you
Kingofjong

 

[dunc]

I think it's called BJJ

 

[wab25]

Danzan Ryu has a bunch of the banned Judo techniques... including Kani Basami (the "most dangerous technique..."). But we also have a bunch of the other banned techniques as well.... though I can not say whether we have them all or not. We do regularly have the old school Judo guys come to our events to share stuff they used to be able to do in Judo, but is now banned... they will many times also show us stuff that was banned when they were competing.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

With or without small joint manipulation and nape of neck strikes?

 

[Oily Dragon]

Hello

I was wondering what is the style of judo called with banned techniques like all leg locks and etc? Does any one teach that in the USA? I am referring to old school judo that is not guided buy any rules not completion judo. Is there no-gi version of it?

Thank you
Kingofjong

There are four Kinshi waza, and AFAIK all four can be found in many Kodokan and Kosen judo schools. Kosen judo is a lot more flexible about rules (you can pull guard etc) but leglocks and neck cranks were banned from competition 100 years ago.

But just because they are banned doesn't mean they aren't taught, but they have a high rate of injury in practice, so these are serious business.

I don't think there are any reputable judo schools that are "not guided by rules". Judo is one of the most formalized, rules based arts out there.

No gi judo is called BJJ, as Dunc pointed out. Because Brazil is hot sweaty place and judo gis are too damn heavy for that.

 

[wab25]

With or without small joint manipulation and nape of neck strikes?

Danzan Ryu has small joint manipulations. Wally Jay, creator of Small Circle Jujitsu got his black belt in Danzan Ryu from Okazaki, the creator of the Danzan Ryu Jujitsu.

We also have various neck strikes and neck cranks / locks.

Danzan Ryu is a little light on the leg locks. But, many of the Danzan Ryu guys have gone out and learned various leg locks and do share...

 

[wab25]

but they have a high rate of injury in practice, so these are serious business.

It depends on how they are practiced. I would say that if you are practicing one of the arts that Judo has banned, and you are having a high rate of injury... then you are not practicing them correctly. Practiced correctly, all the arts that Judo has banned, can be practiced safely and even with a high level of resistance and a lot of energy.

If you rarely ever practice them, and then try to apply them in a full resistance style of randori, with folks egos involved.... sure you can have higher rates of injury.... But, you will also get those higher rates of injury using the fully legal techniques as well.

 

[Oily Dragon]

It depends on how they are practiced. I would say that if you are practicing one of the arts that Judo has banned, and you are having a high rate of injury... then you are not practicing them correctly. Practiced correctly, all the arts that Judo has banned, can be practiced safely and even with a high level of resistance and a lot of energy.

If you rarely ever practice them, and then try to apply them in a full resistance style of randori, with folks egos involved.... sure you can have higher rates of injury.... But, you will also get those higher rates of injury using the fully legal techniques as well.

I think it comes down to, how much do you respect Judo's teachings regarding safety? One break, one head injury, back or neck, and it's over.

I'm not going to post videos of Kinshi waza in competition, it's not pretty. At a certain level of aliveness these techniques are just not safe to pracrice on a partner. This is stuff the last century of judo masters figured out watching students get hurt.

I mean, I've been injured practicing all sorts of unbanned judo waza. And it wasn't my fault, it just happens. Separated shoulders, knee sprains, ankle.

Scissor takedown? Doesn't require ego to fracture bone.

 

[wab25]

Scissor takedown? Doesn't require ego to fracture bone.

Sanshou does not seem to have an issue with it:

Some of those soto momo harai's and high crotch single legs were much more dangerous than a scissor take down.

 

[kingofjong]

Hello

I was wondering what is the style of judo called with banned techniques like all leg locks and etc? Does any one teach that in the USA? I am referring to old school judo that is not guided buy any rules not completion judo. Is there no-gi version of it?

Thank you
Kingofjong

I don't want sports judo but martial arts judo.

 

[kingofjong]

I don't want sports judo but martial arts judo or jujitsu with every illegal move and locks, throws, and ground techniques.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Sanshou does not seem to have an issue with it:

Some of those soto momo harai's and high crotch single legs were much more dangerous than a scissor take down.

Of course. Sanda is a much more brutal ruleset than Judo. And the injuries in Sanda are legendary.

But from experience, those types of takedowns are not practiced with full resistance or power in training with partners. Too easy to get hurt and end your training. You save that type of maneuver for prize money.

And that is just sport Sanda. Junshi ("military") Sanda is a wicked martial art framework with lethal techniques reserved for killing people. Ripping out tracheas, etc. Fu Jow gong.

You can bet we don't practice those techniques on each other except very carefully and slow.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Danzan Ryu has small joint manipulations. Wally Jay, creator of Small Circle Jujitsu got his black belt in Danzan Ryu from Okazaki, the creator of the Danzan Ryu Jujitsu.

We also have various neck strikes and neck cranks / locks.

Danzan Ryu is a little light on the leg locks. But, many of the Danzan Ryu guys have gone out and learned various leg locks and do share...

Small circle was my second martial art after boxing. I was 9. I did meet Wally Jay once in Long Beach as a kid. I did not stick with it past 12 years old, so I never really got very advanced.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

My Father grew up on Oahu and did study there in the late 1940s

 

[frank raud]

I don't want sports judo but martial arts judo.

That's called.....drum roll please, Kodokan Judo.

 

[frank raud]

Hello

I was wondering what is the style of judo called with banned techniques like all leg locks and etc? Does any one teach that in the USA? I am referring to old school judo that is not guided buy any rules not completion judo. Is there no-gi version of it?

Thank you
Kingofjong

IF you can find someone teaching French style judo ( Kawaishi method), it will include leg locks, neck cranks, spine locks, etc. The style has fallen out of favor, including in France, and most judo instructors will teach Kodokan. You can find the Kawaishi method in some modern jiu jitsu styles, but it won't as common in the US as it is in Canada or France.

 

[wab25]

But from experience, those types of takedowns are not practiced with full resistance or power in training with partners. Too easy to get hurt and end your training. You save that type of maneuver for prize money.

If you are not practicing these techniques... only hoping to pull them off for prize money.... thats when injuries become more likely. But, with proper practice, these things can be done safely.

There are arts that do not practice small joint manipulation, because it is too dangerous and causes too many injuries. There are arts that specialize in practicing those same small joint manipulations, and do so safely and at speed and with resistance. There are also arts that do not practice these same small joint manipulations because they are ineffective and do not work. They are the same small joint manipulations... how can there be 3 separate opposing correct views? Of course, the only correct answer must be the view that your art takes on these moves....

Kani Basami was not made illegal because a person was injured. It was made illegal because a certain person was injured. The technique is just like all the others.... some find it too dangerous, some find it well worth training and some find it not worth training because it is ineffective.

If you do want to learn these type of techniques.... look for the people you train them regularly. They know how to train the techniques, how to make them work and how to do so safely. The folks that view the technique as too dangerous, do not train it enough to do so safely or to be effective with it. The folks that do not train it because they feel it is not effective, are not familiar with how to make it work. (though they will show you how to defend / counter / reverse it... so maybe see them next)

 

[Doc]

Hello

I was wondering what is the style of judo called with banned techniques like all leg locks and etc? Does any one teach that in the USA? I am referring to old school judo that is not guided buy any rules not completion judo. Is there no-gi version of it?

Thank you
Kingofjong

Judo was created by Jigoro Kano as a competition-based school discipline, distilled from Japanese Jiu-jitsu. The answer to your question is Japanese Jiu-jitsu, and specifically not BJJ which is based on Judo.

 

[Oily Dragon]

....

Kani Basami was not made illegal because a person was injured. It was made illegal because a certain person was injured. The technique is just like all the others.... some find it too dangerous, some find it well worth training and some find it not worth training because it is ineffective.

Kani Basami is categorized as Kinshi Waza for more than just a certain person. Please don't make me post judo competiton videos with very audible bone cracking sounds.

I'd love to see video of daily Kani Basami training. But it doesn't exist, because Judoka are smart.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

I'd love to see video of daily Kani Basami training. But it doesn't exist, because Judoka are smart.

If you want video, watch the Sambo guys. I'll refrain from drawing any conclusions regarding your opinion on the intelligence of Sambists.