Discussion in 'Jujutsu / Judo' started by macher, May 17, 2018.
Is there a lineage of Judo that isn’t for sport but for pure self defense? Thanks!
Well, no, because Judo (if memory serves) was developed from jujitsu with the specific goal of developing a martial sport.
- ancient time, people tried to make a combat art into a sport.
- modern time, people tried to make a sport back into combat art.
Combat at is the goal. Sport is the temporary training path.
Korean YUDO is often as combat art rather than sport. Judo has kicks, strikes and "illegal" techniques in its original form. Regardless, judo is excellent training to suppliment s-d.
IIRC, Judo originally contained a self-defense curriculum (goshin waza) within the larger curriculum. As long as the full range of Judo is being trained (rather than the more limited range typically seen in competition these days), Judo translates to self-defense pretty easily. The lack of a solid striking (and counter-striking) foundation is the real weakness.
If you are talking about this, I believe it's sport too.
This is why the wrestling single leg and double legs are very risky. When you use both of your hands to attack your opponent's leg/legs, you don't have extra hand to protect your head.
In this clip, his opponent's left punch is totally ignored.
This is the hip throw used in the striking environment.
Judo Atemi-waza: body-striking techniques
Although taught within the full Judo curriculum these striking techniques are forbidden in standard judo competitions rules therefore most are not taught in standard Judo schools
Ude-ate-waza: arm striking techniques
Kobushi-ate-waza: fist techniques
Tsukkake or Tsuki-kake: Straight punch
Mae-naname-ate: Front crossing blow
Naname-tsuki or Mawashi-tsuki: Roundhouse punch or circular punch
Tsuki-age or Ago-tsuki: Uppercut
Uchi-oroshi or Uchi-kake: Downward strike or hammer fist
Yoko-ate: Side strike or backfist
Yoko-uchi: Strike to side
Gammen-tsuki: Thrust punch or jab
Kami-ate or Ue-ate: Upward blow
Shimo-tsuki: Downward blow
Ushiro-sumi-tsuki: Rear corner blow
Ushiro-uchi: Rear blow
Ushiro-tsuki: Rear strike (over shoulders)
Ryote-tsuki: Two hand blow
Hiji-ate-waza: elbow techniques
Mae-hiji-ate: Elbow blow
Ushiro-hiji-ate: Rear elbow strike
Age-hiji-ate: Rising elbow strike
Shita-hiji-ate or Oroshi-hiji-ate : Downward elbow strike
Tegatana-ate-waza: knife hand techniques
Kirioroshi: Downward knife hand cut
Naname-uchi: Slanting knife hand blow
Yubisaki-ate-waza: fingertip techniques
Tsuki-dashi: Hand Thrust
Ryogan-tsuki: Strike both eyes with fingertips
Suri-age: Face slide or forehead thrust
Yahazu: Strikes with the V-shape of the hand
Me-tsubushi: Whipping the back of fingers to strike opponent's eyes
Ashi-ate-waza: leg striking techniques
Sekito-ate-waza: ball of foot techniques
Mae-geri: Front kick
Mae-naname-geri: Front crossing kick or oblique kick
Naname-geri or Mawashi-geri: Roundhouse Kick
Taka-geri: High front kick
Kakato-ate-waza: heel techniques
Yoko-geri: Side kick
Ushiro-geri: Backward kick
Ashi-fumi: Foot stomp
Hiza-gashira-ate-waza: knee techniques
Mae-hiza-ate: Front knee
Yoko-hiza-ate: Side knee
Hiza-otoshi: Dropping knee
Atama-ate-waza: head striking techniques (head butts)
Mae-atama-ate: Strike with the forehead
Ushiro-atama-ate: Strike with the occiput
Atama-tsuki: Head thrust
Kyusho: vital spots (points to strike on the body)
Tendo: Top of the head, bregma
Uto or Miken: Between the eyes, nation
Kasumi: Temple of the head
Jinchu: Below the nose, philtrum
Zen-keibu: Front side of neck with the Adam's apple
Gwanto or Kachikake or Shita-ago: Point of the chin
Dokko: Mastoid process
Suigetsu or Mizu-ochi: Solar plexus
Denko: Right lowest floating rib
Getsuei: Left lowest floating rib
Myojo: 1-inch below the belly button, hypogastrium
Tsuri-gane or Kokan: Testicles
Shitsu or Shita-kansetsu: Knee
Ashi-no-ko: The surface of foot
Uke-waza: blocks and parries
Tenkai: Outside turning or body rotation
Age-uke: Rising block
Harai-uke: Sweeping block
Tegatana-uke: Knife hand block
Shotei-uke: Palm block
Juji-uke: Cross block
Hiki-uke: Grasping block
Morote-uke: Two hand block
Yeah...that's why people don't do single leg or double leg takedowns in fights.
As to the O Goshi:
Can be performed as an underhook or an overhook even in a striking situation. Set up is important. Oh and the overhook version has several counters as well.
You may get knock out when you use single leg or double legs. You won't get knock out when you use under hook hip throw, or over hook hip throw. Why in UFC people use single leg and double legs more often than under hook, or over hook, I truly don't know.
To assume that your hands can reach to your opponent's legs but his hands can't reach to your head may not be realistic.
Of course if you put your hands in front of your knees (as the blue guy in this picture), your opponent's single leg or double legs hands will have to pass through your hands first. Again, you don't have extra hand to protect your head.
You have 2 arms and your opponent also have 2 arms. If you use one arm to control your opponent's leading arm, and use your other arm to
1. wrap his waist, his other arm will be free.
2. lock his head, his other arm will be free.
3. under hook his shoulder, his other arm will not be free.
4. over hook his shoulder, his other arm will not be free.
IMO, 2, 3, 4 > 1
Since when you move your opponent's head, his body will follow, the risk to let him has a free arm may be worthwhile. Definitely 1 is the most risky situation.
The two most successful throws in MMA?
Also both are the most risky throws (reason as I have described). You don't need to use both arms for single leg. One arm should be enough. This way you can still have a free arm to deal with your opponent's arms. IMO, the following single leg is less risky.
When you use your right hand to push your opponent's right shoulder,
- his right hand can't punch you.
- If you also hide your head to the left side of your right arm, his left hand also can't punch you.
Today this move may not be allowed to be used on Judo mat.
I've long suspected that the core striking curriculum in NGA is derived not from Shotokan Karate-do (the officially named source) but at least partly from Kodokan Judo. This is based on the distinct lack of some things I'd expect in a Shotokan approach to striking (stepping to angles and such) and the fact that the strikes themselves are only passingly similar to Shotokan. It might be they are simply changed over time and influenced by others' knowledge, but I have this nagging suspicion. Unfortunately, I've never had a chance to really get into strikes with someone who learned the Judo atemi-waza, so it's nothing more than a hunch.
I'm not very good at single-leg and double-leg, but here's my input. Take it for what it's worth.
When you shoot in for a leg, the leg isn't moving nearly as fast as your head. You only have to grab, making initial contact with some part of your arm (about 1/3 of the arm is a valid area for contact) on some part of the leg (nearly 1/2 of the leg is a valid starting point). To hit you in the head, he has to make contact with a fast-moving head (smaller target) with his fist (too far away for forearms, so smaller valid contact area). And for the punch to matter it has to be hard, the shoot for the leg can even result in a sketchy grip and still turn into an ugly takedown. Much of the advantage goes to the fighter shooting in if he is good at it. Knees come into the equation, but part of being good at shooting in is developing the skill of recognizing when the knees aren't very available (weight shift, double-weighted, etc.). Once a double-leg is started, it's pretty hard to counter.
Conversely, to get double hooks (of almost any variety), you have to step into a grappler's wheelhouse. There are a fair number of counters that work well early in the process. Once the hooks are in, you have a lot of options (so countering the hip throw might just mean you end up going down another way), but countering the entry is easier, IMO. Now, if my single/double-leg was better, maybe I'd also be better at countering them, but I find a hip throw easier to counter even once they get in.
EDIT: And to be clear, I'm a big fan of hip throws.
That entry protects against some things, but is more exposed to others. A right hook would be a great counter, if you have a strong inside hook.
You should not throw a punch. When you don't throw a punch, you have both your hands to defend. When you punch, you only have one hand to defend, you opponent can just slip to the side you are punching from, and knock you out.
You should not throw a kick. When you are not kicking, you have both feet on the ground so you can move. When you kick, you have one foot in the air, so you can not move. You opponent can just move around your kick and push you down.
The thing is, with every attack you make, you leave one or more openings. There is not an attack you can make, that does not create an opening for your opponent. To make matters worse, every technique has a counter. (most have many counters) You can even counter someones defense and use it against them. So... now what? Everything you do, creates an opportunity for your opponent to use the opening to knock you out or counter what you are doing and knock you out... even if you never attack, and are purely defending.
Its all about timing and set up. You have to use the move at the right time, in the right situation and with the right set up. Some techniques require very specific situations and set ups. Others are much more general. But all techniques, will leave you open, especially when not set up or timed properly. You should not be ruling out techniques because they can be countered... that rules all of them out. You should not rule out techniques that leave openings... that rules them all out. Instead, you should learn what is required in set up and timing to make each technique work. Applying a technique takes a lot more than just the physical ability to move your body.
Well, maybe you should take the opportunity to to learn why. There is a ton of empirical evidence showing single and double leg take downs work. There is a lot of empirical evidence that judo style hip throws work as well. Yes, you can find that occasionally, they can get knocked out in the attempt. But, look at the data... there are probably tens of thousands of successful single and double leg take downs in MMA, there are probably thousands of Judo style hip throws MMA... you can probably name off the top of your head the few times someone was knocked out in the attempt.
One thing I find interesting is that many of the most successful, and impactful, double leg take downs are counters to the other guy punching.
At the end of the day, all techniques have to be used in the right situation, with the right set up and timing. Its easy to sit back and watch the TV and say "he should have just knocked him out." But, these techniques have been around a long time... people in real combat situations and in sport combat situations find these effective. Maybe we should take some time to learn why the opponent decides not to simply knock him out, when he tries a double leg.
It's called Kodokan.
I'm far from knowing the language or even much about Japanese but isn't Kodokan merely 'the place or building' that the training is conducted? And is it not Judo which is taught at the Kodokan?
Interesting. So NGA doesn't use angles for attacking?
Most in NGA don't teach the angling-out seen in Shotokan (which sets up their kicks, if their opponent doesn't close the space). We tend to enter and exit off-line more similarly to Ueshiba's Aikido, though often entering close than they do. We tend to think of movement more in terms of circles and cutting across the circle rather than creating an angle.123
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