Joe Salazar, Yu Ko Ryu Hanshi

[Flying Crane]

Bachelor's in Law was an older degree. Off the top of my head, I don't remember exactly how it fit, but it predated the JD that generally is awarded today.

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How old are we talking about? Prior to the 1960s? 1930s? 1880s?

I suppose it is possible that some university today might offer a bachelors in law, but that would be a unique program and certainly does not prepare someone to practice law. Passing the bar is required, and a proper JD is the best route to success in that, tho to be honest it is not the only route.

 

[jks9199]

How old are we talking about? Prior to the 1960s? 1930s? 1880s?

I suppose it is possible that some university today might offer a bachelors in law, but that would be a unique program and certainly does not prepare someone to practice law. Passing the bar is required, and a proper JD is the best route to success in that, tho to be honest it is not the only route.

I'm not certain, but not all that long ago. Passing the bar exam is only required to practice law; while i don't quite get spending the money for law school and not spending at least some time practicibg, people do it... And then there are states like Virginia where you can still "read law" under the guidance of an attorney, and then take the bar exam without setting goot in a law school...

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[Flying Crane]

I'm not certain, but not all that long ago. Passing the bar exam is only required to practice law; while i don't quite get spending the money for law school and not spending at least some time practicibg, people do it... And then there are states like Virginia where you can still "read law" under the guidance of an attorney, and then take the bar exam without setting goot in a law school...

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Yes, this is all true. I was not aware of a bachelors in law in any capacity. I have never heard of it before. I'll ask my wife about it, see if she knows the history.

 

[Flying Crane]

Ok, quick google-fu uncovers American Public University, an online school, that offers a bachelors degree in legal studies. It claims to be relevant to people looking for a career as a paralegal or law enforcement, or as preparation to entering law school.

While a bachelors degree is required to enter law school, what the topic of the bachelors degree might be is wide open. It absolutely does not need to be in legal studies.

 

[ykrhanshi]

Most of those I knew or practiced with are dead and gone, Phil Porter, Sig Kufferath, Tom Anguay, Ed Parker, Keiko Fukuda, Bud Estes, and Kobun Chino to name a few. Some I lost track of like Henry Aragon, Mitch Otta, Sgt. Tembler and many others. Some may have been lost in the Vietnam War, since we did have a draft in effect. We did not see the need to keep records of training, and we did not follow the tradition of passing on a scroll listing generations of teachers and students. The politics of martial arts organizations in the U. S. seems to have begun around 1945 when Japanese Americans were reestablishing their cultural community activities. In 1948 some non Asian Americans still looked at Japanese Americans with suspicion. Many families would not allow their children to participate in anything connected with Japanese culture. Americans in Hawaii and California created schools for martial arts that were not part of the Japanese community, but followed the same training regimen. As prejudice and suspicions wore down, American MA clubs and schools were invited to join the Japanese organizations. Some did and some preferred to remain independent. For those of us who remained independent due to our teachers operating a floating dojo, or being anti organization, when we joined an organized martial arts association we produced whatever documentation we could and were evaluated and/or tested. Having satisfied the examiner that we qualified for a certificate of rank, the certificate for that organization was issued. As Americans we don't feel a need to trace our lineage back to Siddhartha Gautama, but some make an impressive try. Academic, historical data means little in a combat situation. Anyone in a free society may write a document that will have value to some and be just a piece of paper to others. The true test of MA skill is in combat, and knowledge is in teaching. No one is required to justify him or her self to any individual or organization, unless seeking recognition. To most the study of martial arts is a hobby, an exercise, recreation, or social event. To some MA practice is a way to discover our true nature. Japanese Budo is more than fighting fair and honorably. We train for the times when we are faced with intellectual as well as physical assault.

Osu,

Sensei joe

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Most of those I knew or practiced with are dead and gone, Phil Porter, Sig Kufferath, Tom Anguay, Ed Parker, Keiko Fukuda, Bud Estes, and Kobun Chino to name a few. Some I lost track of like Henry Aragon, Mitch Otta, Sgt. Tembler and many others. Some may have been lost in the Vietnam War, since we did have a draft in effect. We did not see the need to keep records of training, and we did not follow the tradition of passing on a scroll listing generations of teachers and students. The politics of martial arts organizations in the U. S. seems to have begun around 1945 when Japanese Americans were reestablishing their cultural community activities. In 1948 some non Asian Americans still looked at Japanese Americans with suspicion. Many families would not allow their children to participate in anything connected with Japanese culture. Americans in Hawaii and California created schools for martial arts that were not part of the Japanese community, but followed the same training regimen. As prejudice and suspicions wore down, American MA clubs and schools were invited to join the Japanese organizations. Some did and some preferred to remain independent. For those of us who remained independent due to our teachers operating a floating dojo, or being anti organization, when we joined an organized martial arts association we produced whatever documentation we could and were evaluated and/or tested. Having satisfied the examiner that we qualified for a certificate of rank, the certificate for that organization was issued. As Americans we don't feel a need to trace our lineage back to Siddhartha Gautama, but some make an impressive try. Academic, historical data means little in a combat situation. Anyone in a free society may write a document that will have value to some and be just a piece of paper to others. The true test of MA skill is in combat, and knowledge is in teaching. No one is required to justify him or her self to any individual or organization, unless seeking recognition. To most the study of martial arts is a hobby, an exercise, recreation, or social event. To some MA practice is a way to discover our true nature. Japanese Budo is more than fighting fair and honorably. We train for the times when we are faced with intellectual as well as physical assault.

Osu,

Sensei joe

Hi Joe! Welcome to MartialTalk and thanks for clarifying that you are the person whose bio was being presented. The use of the third person in your original post was somewhat confusing.

I don't think most people here care about whether you have paperwork documenting your lineage through past generations. However if you're going to make a point of emphasizing the ranks you hold ...

Judo Hachidan (8th degree) 04/14/1984

Jujitsu Kudan (9th degree) 12/11/2005

Karate Kudan (9th degree) 11/12/2005

... then some people will be curious as to what those ranks indicate. As you know, a given rank can mean very different things depending on what art, organization, and instructor issued it.

Talking about exactly what arts you've studied is also a good conversation starter. As you also know, there are some pretty huge differences between different systems of karate and between different systems of jujutsu. Judo is more standardized, although you can find some variation out there.

If you've been training for 59 years, I'm sure you have lots of good stories to tell about what you've experienced and the people you've met along the way. I hope you'll jump in to some of the other threads and join the conversations.

 

[ykrhanshi]

Yes, this is all true. I was not aware of a bachelors in law in any capacity. I have never heard of it before. I'll ask my wife about it, see if she knows the history.

I read the documents again and one says "Bachelor of Science in Law", the other says "Juris Doctor". These are what were issued and were valid at the time.
I believe Mr. Narkin moved to Oregon after loosing his California license.
As I recall there were two other law degrees one might earn, namely the LLM and PhD.

 

[Flying Crane]

I read the documents again and one says "Bachelor of Science in Law", the other says "Juris Doctor". These are what were issued and were valid at the time.
I believe Mr. Narkin moved to Oregon after loosing his California license.
As I recall there were two other law degrees one might earn, namely the LLM and PhD.

Fair enough.

And it may be that the LLM is the law degree equivalent of a Ph.d. I don't believe they are two different degrees. People who get this degree tend to go into academia and research.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Given the background of Saratoga University, I don't think I'll be consulting with Mr. Salazar for legal advice. That said, this is MartialTalk, not LegalTalk, so hopefully he will join in on some of the martial arts related discussions here.

 

[Flying Crane]

4.Having lawyers in the family isn't the same as reading thousands of words from hundreds of precedent setting cases.

Sensei Joe

My comment was more to let you know that I am familiar with the educational and training processes of becoming an attorney. While I am not an attorney myself, I have worked for the last 22 or so years in the legal industry as case clerk, legal assistant, and third-party issues manager. I have worked with many attorneys and government agents along the way, and feel confident that I have a stronger level of comfort with legal processes, documents, language and procedures than most people.

For what it's worth.

If you never became a practicing attorney, there is nothing wrong with that. An education in law is still a very valuable thing and can be useful in lots of other fields of employment.

 

[ykrhanshi]

Fair enough.

And it may be that the LLM is the law degree equivalent of a Ph.d. I don't believe they are two different degrees. People who get this degree tend to go into academia and research.

The difference is the LLM is the Master of Latin Law and the PhD is the Doctorate.

The value of legal information and theory for us in the MA is defining the limits of self defense and security techniques we can apply without crossing the line of criminality. I have had some teachers who did not know those limits!

 

[ykrhanshi]

Given the background of Saratoga University, I don't think I'll be consulting with Mr. Salazar for legal advice. That said, this is MartialTalk, not LegalTalk, so hopefully he will join in on some of the martial arts related discussions here.

Legal advice cannot be given by a person who is registered with the California Law Bar as a law student.
Even I am not sure about the now defunct university, but as with any study, the student usually teaches himself what the teacher leaves out.
I did learn more about hands-on take down and control limits in POST (Police Officer Standard Training) and PART (Professional Assault Response Training), for when common sense advice didn't work.

 

[Flying Crane]

The difference is the LLM is the Master of Latin Law and the PhD is the Doctorate.

The value of legal information and theory for us in the MA is defining the limits of self defense and security techniques we can apply without crossing the line of criminality. I have had some teachers who did not know those limits!

I would say that a whole lot of what was taught in the kenpo that I learned, does not recognize such limits. It tends to be presented in a moral vacuum, left for the student to decide.

Perhaps for some people that can be appropriate. For others, well, they run with scissors...

 

[Flying Crane]

Legal advice cannot be given by a person who is registered with the California Law Bar as a law student.
Even I am not sure about the now defunct university, but as with any study, the student usually teaches himself what the teacher leaves out.
I did learn more about hands-on take down and control limits in POST (Police Officer Standard Training) and PART (Professional Assault Response Training), for when common sense advice didn't work.

I don't believe one registers with the state bar as a law student. One is a member of the bar upon passing the bar exam, and is at that moment authorized to practice law. As a law student, I do not believe there is a formal connection yet.