Joe Palanzo's Kenpo Self Protection.

Discussion in 'Kenpo - (EPAK) Ed Parker's American Kenpo Karate S' started by hongkongfooey, Aug 4, 2006.

  1. Kenpojujitsu3

    Kenpojujitsu3 Master Black Belt

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    Here Crane I'll help if I can. If I'm correct Tracy Kenpo has 400 techs or so. Parker Kenpo has 154 - 160 depending on where you go. In the 24 Technique Parker Kenpo system you learned all the material by 3rd Black and all Base techniques before 1st black. then came the 16 or 15 technique systems that streatched it out to 5th Black. Now comes this 5 - 10 per belt system that has people learning 60 techniques total (from the manuals I received) by Black Belt. That's down from 154 to 60. That's as much material (on paper) as my purple belts. That's too far in some people's opinion, mine included. It's not so much a stretching out of the material from what I've read there are a bunch of things omitted as well.
     
  2. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    I understand where you are coming from, and I'm not trying to dog on anyones system esp. since I don't know it. It was just that particular comment sounded very commercial. If the techs are well designed and make sense and teach something valuable, then I am all for it, even if it is a lot. If they are not well thought out and don't teach something of value, but they are still there, then it is filler and just used to keep people coming back and paying more money.

    I am in no position to pass that judgement on a curriculum that I am not familiar with. What caught my eye was simply how RichK stated what he stated. I probably misunderstood what he meant, but it sounded like one business operator giving business advice to another business operator, instead of talking about solid martial arts, that's all.

    My beef with quantitiy over quality lies with Tracys, which of course is where I come from and where my experience lies. I have only very very limited familiarity with a little bit of EPAK, but in comparison of technique list numbers alone, it's entirely possible that EPAK has resolved the issue that I have with Tracys.

    What Mr. Palanzo has done with his version of EPAK, or what was once EPAK, i am certainly in no position to comment on as I have no familiarity with it. I just found RichK's comment odd, that's all, and wanted to point out what is sort of implied.
     
  3. jfarnsworth

    jfarnsworth Grandmaster

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    Got it, thanks. I'll try to catch him sometime before teaching at the studio. It might be the best.
     
  4. RichK

    RichK Green Belt

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    Flying Crane, my typed words are worse than my spoken words so I am sure you did not understand...LOL. In the KSP system there are now 5 techs per belt level. Originally 32 per that stopped at, I think, Green and then 24 per which I learned which stopped at 2nd Brown and then 16 per which stops at 1st Black. What I mean by stopped is that is where the base technique ends and the extensions to the base techniques pick up. 154 base plus 96 extensions. All three curriculums are teaching the same thing but just changing the length of material. The techniques were created in a way that built upon body mechanics and gave the mind different "what-if" scenarios. Also the universal pattern that Mr Parker created was designed to be used as a teaching method broken down by different attacks. Go ahead Doc correct me on that, I never claimed to be the smartest cookie in the jar. I had two students that picked up on the new curriculum and were wizzing through it. One was a male adult, BB in TKD and the other a female adult with no previous experience. I was always coming up with filler material because I could tell they were getting bored with the new curriculum. And BTW my "filler" material is not just used to fill, I use it to expound upon the mind. A couple other students I cringed and watched as they were "given" belts because they could do the motion but had no clue as to why. If students get bored because they are only learning a couple of "moves" they are going to go elsewhere. Not a business owners advice but an instuctors watchful eye. For example my daughter is in all honors classes this year and last. Before that she was lazy as she never had to work at a goal or self fulfillment. Same principle.
    Crane, do not worry about the passing judgement on curriculum comment. From you I do not take that as a negative. My background is in TKD, Aikido and Ju Jitsu also with my brother being an instructor in bujiken so I have a pretty good idea of varying curriculums.
    I am against the new curriculumm but you know what that is ME. If anyone likes it than that is their perogitive.
     
  5. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Understood, I didn't mean any offense and glad to see it sounds like none was taken. Without knowing specifics, I have a general understanding of how techs and extensions are organized in EPAK so I can follow what you are describing in a general sort of way. I also agree, a teacher should keep students interested and learning, so long as what is being presented is quality.

    My first reaction upon seeing how EPAK is structured was that it too is really shortened, compared to Tracys, and they must be missing out on a bunch of stuff. Now, years later, after thinking about it A LOT and doing my own revisions on the Tracys system, I am no longer convinced of this. The whole "quality over quantity" issue.

    Since I don't know Palanzo's shortened curriculum, I'll ask a quick question. Are the techs solid, or foolish, in your opinion? Again, getting back to the quality over quantity thing. It seems that if the techs are well designed, you could get a lot of mileage out of them in the classroom, even if they are simple, and even if there are few of them. Often the simple stuff works the best, and is what you end up relying upon. Simple techs can be worked in lots of creative ways to really develop that particular skill. They can also be used as a conceptual starting point for students to develop their own creativity. Begin with the base tech, then start creating all kinds of variables and see what the student comes up with, while sticking to the concepts of the base tech. How many really different attacks and scenarios can the same basic tech be effectively used in?

    The quality over quantity issue is one that I wrestle with a lot. On the one hand, you don't want to eliminate anything that is quality, but on the other hand, it is possible to become overloaded with things, even if they are all quality. It can become hard to know where it is best to draw the line. Most people solve the problem by just keeping the system that they have learned, with the belief (whether right or wrong, or simply right for YOU, regardless of how others see it) that it is all good and well structured. Others look to shake things up a bit and see if they can figure out a better way. Some add, some delete, some change, some do all. Either way can be good, even excellent, depending on the person.

    Again, the original comment struck me as a bit odd, and I had a feeling you didn't mean it that way. It's just how it read to me, so I thought I'd give you a poke in the ribs a bit over it. I'll just sort of shut up now, since we're discussing curriculum that I don't have experience with.
     
  6. Russell Palanzo

    Russell Palanzo White Belt

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    I thought I could clarify a few things.

    The intent of the revised WKKA DVD curriculum is simple: to standardize the Kenpo curriculum among member schools in order to increase the consistency and quality of Kenpo training. The new curriculum is also proving to be an excellent teaching aid for non-kenpo schools that are interested in a solid self defense program, and cannot train 3 days a week for 7 years.

    The system is not being "watered down". The entire EPAK system is still there. The information has been redistributed. Category completion and advanced techniques and principles have been placed in the Black Belt ranks for students that really what the information. Yes, the testing requirements have been reduced, but this was done so beginners can spend more time working on their basics, while progressing. If a Kenpo Black Belt can perform all 60 techniques up to Black Betl in the revised curriculum, they are going to be a good Black Belt. It still takes a student 3 1/2-5 years to achieve a Black Belt at our school.

    As for my father's passion... Kenpo is his life. He still goes through all the techniques first thing at the school on most mornings. He spent an entire year producing the new Kenpo DVD's. He is 62 with two artificial hips and surgically repaired shoulders and wrists. He did not have to undertake the project, and he probably should not have. But he did. Why? Money? He has been running schools for almost 40 years, I can assure you he doesn't need the money. He wants to create something that can be passed on from generation to generation. He wants Kenpo, the way he learned it from Ed Parker to spread. My father is the most passionate martial artist I know.

    Please do not hesitate to contact me if you have any questions regarding the WKKA certification programs, the revised curriculum, or anything.

    Respectfully,
    Russell Palanzo
    russell@wkka.org
    (410) 484-7122
     
  7. Doc

    Doc Senior Master

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    Tell Joe I said, "Wazzzuppppppppp." :)
     
  8. Kembudo-Kai Kempoka

    Kembudo-Kai Kempoka Senior Master

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    Since the fire you are quenching started on this thread, I am hoping you will see the sense in my limiting my ideas to this thread, as opposed to seeking you in personal contact.

    First, thank you for your reply. Many are questioned in these forums, but few respond. I think your willingness to enter the crucible is admirable, particularly considering the amount of flak offerred by so many (myself included) kenpoists about abbreviated programs supported by video.

    As for the surgeries...my sincerest blessings to your father; I'm in line for a total shoulder reconstruction, and am sure it will affect my kenpo.

    For the modified cirriculum; there is an inherent contradiction in saying "preserve Ed Parkers Kenpo" in the same body of text as "rearranging category completion to later belts; smaller number of tech's; etc." That is, simply stated, not the kenpo that Mr. Parker left behind, en masse. That is not to say it ain't potentially good kenpo -- I personally subscribe to a modified system, believing the 154 to contain much fluff built around concepts often better explored as concepts than rote-memorized as techniques. But I do not represent the corpus as Ed Parkers. I will give him distinguished credit for subtleties in the basics, and for the revolutionary concepts and ideas that drive the movement exploration and execution; but I will not counter his last published wishes for the system by saying, "This is EPAK".

    And for the record, I hope you didn't inherit his chin, as I did MY fathers.

    Best Regards,

    Dave Crouch, DC
    Santa Rosa, CA
    707-538-1134
    drdavecrouchdc@yahoo.com
     
  9. Kenpojujitsu3

    Kenpojujitsu3 Master Black Belt

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    I almost thought I was the only one who saw that minor contradiction but along comes Dave to spoil it for me :) And I can concur here to degree

    LOL!!!!!
     
  10. hongkongfooey

    hongkongfooey Black Belt

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    I guess my beef with the whole thing is the video training. I can see a person supplementing their system with outside material. That is fine nothing wrong with that. But, to learn the system, go to a school and receive live instruction from a person who can correct mistakes and offer advice. It pains me to think that a Tae Kwon Do school could be teaching American Kenpo that they learned from a video. They may learn to mimic the motion, but I doubt they would learn much else from a DVD.
     
  11. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    Thank you for that post. I appreciate the input.
     
  12. Kenpo17

    Kenpo17 Green Belt

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    I am proud to say that Mr. Palanzo is my instructor, and I think the video's on the WKKA website are amazing. Mr. Palanzo being the President of the WKKA, I know I am going to and have been recieving great instruction from him for 10 years. Anyway, he uses alot of those videos such as Falcons of Force, and Mace of Agression to help promote the WKKA.
     
  13. Twin Fist

    Twin Fist Grandmaster

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    congrats on an almost 3 year necrothread
     
  14. LuckyKBoxer

    LuckyKBoxer Master Black Belt

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    Are you serious? I saw the test thread on KenpoTalk, You still have not answered the questions asked of you. I actually was at the supershow that was originally mentioned in this thread. I wore my Kenpo TShirt proudly, until I saw The WKKA demo featuring Joe Palanzo. That is still the only time in my life I was ashamed of Kenpo. I had someone ask me if that was the same thing I did, I said "No I do Kenpo, I don't know what that was"
     
  15. kenpo3631

    kenpo3631 Black Belt

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    Can't get the darn vids to play...:-(

    Who knows? Maybe his blocking arm is extended too far out to get good travel for an affective strike?
     
  16. kenpo3631

    kenpo3631 Black Belt

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    If the right arm is in the proper position and not too far stretched then re-cocking shouldn't be necessary. The right chop (slicing chop) as I was taught, is somewhat a minor move to set up the major move, that being the straight finger thrust to the eyes with the left (or heelpalm depending on how you were taught it)?

    I agree with your observation about the points of origin.
     
  17. Kenpo17

    Kenpo17 Green Belt

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    These are some of the best Kenpo videos I have seen!! Mr. Palanzo deserves way more credit than a lot of people are giving him on this forum.
     
  18. Hollywood1340

    Hollywood1340 2nd Black Belt

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    What other kenpo vids have you seen?
     
  19. yorkshirelad

    yorkshirelad Master Black Belt

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    Hm....so you're saying they are better than the Tatum vids? I don't believe it. I've seen Mr Palanzo on youtube in the 'Expert Village' teaching videos and he doesn't come close to Tatum. No offense to him, but I've seen pretty much all the Kenpo vids on the market, (except Al Farnsworth's,but something 's telling me I'm not missing much there) and they all pale in relation to Tatum's vids. They are a great reference.
    If they really are the best videos you've ever seen, then I suggest you contact Tatum and buy a couple of his, you'll truly be impressed.
     
  20. Twin Fist

    Twin Fist Grandmaster

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    Mr Palanzo, in his day was a truely gifted kenpoist

    today, his knowledge may still be intact but his ability to move is hampered, and taping himself instead of his senior students doesnt do him any good.

    I dont want to sound like a jerk here, but if Palanzo is the best you have seen, you havnt looked very far.

    google these names + Kenpo:

    Tatum
    Mills
    Chapel
    Speakman
    seminario and serrano
     

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