It's True: Iraq is a quagmire

Cruentus

Grandmaster
Joined
Apr 17, 2002
Messages
7,161
Reaction score
130
Location
At an OP in view of your house...
I understand that our military has an unwritten polciy of innocent people getting hurt while chasing one of 'them'; the number is twenty. If in an attempt to kill a leader of a terrorist organization, the innocent casualties will be less than 20, the commander on the ground can make the call in favor of launching the strike. If the anticipated civilian casualties are going to be higher than 20 persons, a higher authority for the strike must be sought.

Do we have the right to hurt innocent people in our efforts to chase down "them". (Who ever "them" is this week - for "them" seems to shift quite often).

I'd never heard any such policy like that; do you have a source?

That said, there is a difference between collateral damage where innocent people get hurt/killed in a war zone, and intentionally going after innocent people. Collateral damage sucks, but it is a fact in war, thus creating moral gray areas. There is no gray area when it comes too intentionally going after innocent people, as this is a complete moral corruption...
 

5-0 Kenpo

Master of Arts
Joined
Jun 9, 2005
Messages
1,540
Reaction score
60
I can't help but wonder ...

We are told that "Iraq is the central front in the Global War on Terrorism, because Osama Bin Laden says it is" by our President. This leads us to believe that we should give credence to what Osama Bin Laden says.

Then we are told that "Al Qaeda attacks because they are murderous bastards", and we should not give credence to what Osama Bin Laden says.

Well ... just as long as we can have it both ways at the same time.

Sure, why not? It's just like the abortion debate that certain groups/individuals make:

You can have an abortion, because it's your body.... but you can't do drugs...

Absolutely the same situation. Both "sides" of a debate do the same thing in political discussions, with few exceptions.
 

michaeledward

Grandmaster
Joined
Mar 1, 2003
Messages
6,063
Reaction score
82
1. No such policy exists! That is the kind of asinine idiocy one would get from places like the dailykos, etc. The US Military bends so far over backwards to NOT hurt non-combatants it endangers our own people.
2. Terrorists have a long history of hiding in residential areas, mosques, schools, and hospitals. Do you know why? Because that makes it really hard for us to shoot back at them.
3. In the first week of basic training American servicemen are taught the "Rules of Land Warfare" A big part of that training is it is WRONG to hide behind non-combatants or to disguise yourself as a non-combatant.
4. Claiming an "unofficial policy" such as the one you suggest exists is an affront to servicemen and veterans. Not being smart enough to realize it is made up ought to just be embarrassing...

As I recall from "A Few Good Men", there is no mess hall in Quantanamo Bay either.

But, Big Don, you have said ... terrorists are insane. And you haven't addressed my queries related to this ascertion. Why does the President use the comments of an insane person (by your definition), Osama bin Laden, in order to justify the United States Military presence in Iraq.

[yt]tJsN4k2kDls[/yt]

http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm
 

michaeledward

Grandmaster
Joined
Mar 1, 2003
Messages
6,063
Reaction score
82
I'd never heard any such policy like that; do you have a source?

That said, there is a difference between collateral damage where innocent people get hurt/killed in a war zone, and intentionally going after innocent people. Collateral damage sucks, but it is a fact in war, thus creating moral gray areas. There is no gray area when it comes too intentionally going after innocent people, as this is a complete moral corruption...

This article is interesting ...

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2007/10/25/60minutes/main3411230.shtml

Obviously, if it is an unwritten policy ~ and if you choose to disregard my argument because I ascert the policy is unwritten, that's fine, but look to the evidence ~ there won't be any formal documentation.


The crux of your argument is 'innocent people'. Do those on the other side view their actions as indescriminate?

We have been told that the targeting on September 11, was specific. The World Trade Towers were attacked because they were symbols of Western business. The Pentagon was attacked because it is a symbol of American Military. If those targets are symbols of what is being fought against, can the occupants be 'innocent people'?


And, if the targets aren't legitimate, can our targeting of a jeep driving through the Afghan countryside be a legitimate target?
 

heretic888

Senior Master
Joined
Oct 25, 2002
Messages
2,723
Reaction score
60
Aside from a few random crazies, who the media tried not to ID as Muslims, and who didn't accomplish much, there have been no terrorist attacks on US soil since 9-11. This is amazing, considering the vast numbers of Mexicans and others able to make it across our porous southern border.

[snip]

and yet, they have been unable to strike American targets on American soil one time in over six years... Somehow, I am less than impressed.

Hi Big Don,

It is important to remember that prior to September 11, there had been no successful terrorist attacks on "American soil" (by which I assume you are referring to the continental United States and not embassies or military vessels) by Muslim extremists since 1993. As such, this large gap of time is in no way unusual and is to be expected.

Secondary targets, however, such as U.S. military vessels, embassies, and consulates have been successfully attacked both before and after September 11. In fact, such attacks have happened more frequently since September 11 and our occupation of Iraq.

I'd rather have our military, who are trained, equipped and, btw, PAID to fight our enemies, fight our enemies in Iraq than in, oh say LA, Miami and Dayton.

Most of "our enemies" in Iraq are Iraqi nationalists and tribal insurgents who have no ties to international terrorist organizations. Even the organization Al Queda In Iraq has only indirect ties to the larger Al Queda organization (the leader of the former changed the name of his group to gather the attention of the latter).

Some military experts have predicted that were we to withdraw from Iraq, these groups would slaughter the Al Queda forces in Iraq (whom they also fight against) in very short order.

The few (Shamefully few) Muslims that speak out against terrorism tell us that Islam is a "Religion of Peace™" That would be a lot easier to sell if the anyone from any other religion had ever used suicide bombers. That is one of the precious few innovations by Muslims in the past 700 years.

I suspect this has more to do with the socioeconomic conditions of the people in question as well as the availability of such explosives technology in the modern age. Were such technology available to the Christian "martyrs" (who, by the way, were just as "insane" as our terrorists) during the time of Nero, you can rest assured the Muslims wouldn't be the first suicide bombers in history.

Laterz.
 
OP
Big Don

Big Don

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Messages
10,551
Reaction score
190
Location
Sanger CA
As I recall from "A Few Good Men", there is no mess hall in Quantanamo Bay either.
Really? You're gonna use that movie to prop up your argument? (I hate to tell you, but, Santa isn't real, either) You need to look up the word FICTION...
But, Big Don, you have said ... terrorists are insane. And you haven't addressed my queries related to this ascertion. Why does the President use the comments of an insane person (by your definition), Osama bin Laden, in order to justify the United States Military presence in Iraq.
http://www.cursor.org/stories/civilian_deaths.htm
That's a nice unbiased source there... http://www.cursor.org/toc.htm
Crazy people still kill people, an megalomania is psychiatric too. Would you call Hitler's attempted extermination of the Jews sane? He an Osama share a stated goal...
Bin Laden's insanity doesn't stop his followers from committing mass murder, and certainly shouldn't stop us from defending ourselves and our allies. You can't really believe it is wrong to defend when attacked by the insane can you?
 

michaeledward

Grandmaster
Joined
Mar 1, 2003
Messages
6,063
Reaction score
82
Really? You're gonna use that movie to prop up your argument? (I hate to tell you, but, Santa isn't real, either) You need to look up the word FICTION...
That's a nice unbiased source there... http://www.cursor.org/toc.htm
Crazy people still kill people, an megalomania is psychiatric too. Would you call Hitler's attempted extermination of the Jews sane? He an Osama share a stated goal...
Bin Laden's insanity doesn't stop his followers from committing mass murder, and certainly shouldn't stop us from defending ourselves and our allies. You can't really believe it is wrong to defend when attacked by the insane can you?

Well, Big Don ... I am so glad that Marine Manual in Guantanamo Bay tells our soldiers there when and where to eat. ~Whew~ I thought they were getting mighty hungry, keeping those human beings away from the Red Cross, and away from any legal system.

You still haven't addressed the first question I asked.

Why did President Bush invade and occupy the nation-state of Iraq?
Why does President Bush make his foreign policy decisions because of the language of Osama bin Laden?
Who are we defending ourselves from in Iraq?
What was the danger posed to us by Iraq?
 
OP
Big Don

Big Don

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Messages
10,551
Reaction score
190
Location
Sanger CA
Well, Big Don ... I am so glad that Marine Manual in Guantanamo Bay tells our soldiers there when and where to eat.
Again, you are confusing fiction with fact, that doesn't make you look very smart...
~Whew~ I thought they were getting mighty hungry, keeping those human beings away from the Red Cross, and away from any legal system.
Would you rather we treated them as un-uniformed combatants under the Geneva Conventions? Because combatants not in uniform are, under the Geneva Conventions, considered spies or saboteurs and may be LEGALLY summarily executed. Which would save us a lot of money and free up troops for other duties.
You still haven't addressed the first question I asked.

Why did President Bush invade and occupy the nation-state of Iraq?
To remove a brutal tyrant from power. Saddam's regime not only used Weapons of Mass Destruction against Iraqis (Kurds are still Iraqis...) but, also waged a campaign of terror including rape rooms. He [Hussein] you might also remember, defied 17 separate UN resolutions demanding he A} Disband his WMD programs B} Allow UN inspectors free access to see that the WMD's were in fact gone, or rendered harmless. We KNOW he had had weapons of mass destruction, because he used them, during the Iran/Iraq war and also on his own Kurdish population. Whether he still had them or not, his responsibility to the Cease Fire Agreement that ended the 91 Gulf War (That Hussein started by invading Kuwait...) and to the UN was to PROVE the weapons no longer existed and were disposed of properly (Not hidden in the desserts or shipped to foreign lands or sold or given to terrorist groups he was a vocal proponent of. He did not.
Why does President Bush make his foreign policy decisions because of the language of Osama bin Laden?
Because when people want to, and have shown an ability to kill you, you try to kill them first, or render them unable to harm you, this is called self-defense, you may have heard of it.
Who are we defending ourselves from in Iraq?
Terrorists. Because if they are busy actively fighting THERE they aren't blowing up HERE.
What was the danger posed to us by Iraq?
A threat to our allies is also a threat we must face, that is known as friendship. If your friend was constantly threatened by a bully with a history of mass murder, wouldn't you do something to help him? You may have heard the quote:"All that is needed for evil to prosper is for good men to do nothing." Well, thanks to President Bush, and our military and allies, Saddam Hussein is no longer prosperous. You may have also heard the quote: "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere." The injustices of Hussein's regime are also ended, aren't they?
 

Empty Hands

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
4,269
Reaction score
200
Location
Jupiter, FL
That would be a lot easier to sell if the anyone from any other religion had ever used suicide bombers. That is one of the precious few innovations by Muslims in the past 700 years. No one else does that.

I would say about this comment what you said about mine in an earlier thread, but I'm not that immature. As such, I will just content myself with saying this comment is wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombing#History

The Tamil Tigers were responsible more than any other single group for the modern use of suicide bombing. Their religion? Mainly Hindu.

Muslims are not the uniquely insane and evil creatures you seem to think they are. Nor, if you were of a mind to proof-text, would the texts of Islam lend themselves to bad behavior any more than the texts of Judaism and Christianity.
 

michaeledward

Grandmaster
Joined
Mar 1, 2003
Messages
6,063
Reaction score
82
Big Don ... Osama Bin Laden was never in Iraq. Fighting "Them" there did not prevent the London Tube bombings, nor the Madrid train bombings.

President Bush takes orders from a Crazy Person, and you're worried about me confusing fact with fiction. Wow.
 
OP
Big Don

Big Don

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Messages
10,551
Reaction score
190
Location
Sanger CA
Big Don ... Osama Bin Laden was never in Iraq.
I never said he was, nor, did anyone in the Bush administration.The bad thing about the widespread use of technology is the bad guys can use it too...
Fighting "Them" there did not prevent the London Tube bombings, nor the Madrid train bombings.
Yes, the UK and Spain have their own problems with Muslim Terrorism, in both countries, the Muslims who have immigrated to them are by and large, unabashedly radical and opposed to assimilating into the culture of the nations they live in. Spain's decision to appease the terrorists by giving in to their demands that Spain pull it's troops from Iraq and Afghanistan is a lot like Chamberlain's appeasement of Hitler.
President Bush takes orders from a Crazy Person, and you're worried about me confusing fact with fiction. Wow.
1 No, he does not take orders from a crazy person. He responds to the very real threat posed by those who follow the crazy person's denouncements and pronouncements.
2 If he were taking orders from bin Laden, he would have pulled out our troops from Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, removed all US support from Israel and converted to Islam, he is clearly not following orders...
3 You keep quoting a movie, that, by the way, never claimed to be based on real events, and comparing it to reality. This shows a marked lack of comprehension on your part, IMHO.
 
OP
Big Don

Big Don

Sr. Grandmaster
Joined
Sep 2, 2007
Messages
10,551
Reaction score
190
Location
Sanger CA
I would say about this comment what you said about mine in an earlier thread, but I'm not that immature. As such, I will just content myself with saying this comment is wrong.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Suicide_bombing#History

The Tamil Tigers were responsible more than any other single group for the modern use of suicide bombing. Their religion? Mainly Hindu.

Muslims are not the uniquely insane and evil creatures you seem to think they are. Nor, if you were of a mind to proof-text, would the texts of Islam lend themselves to bad behavior any more than the texts of Judaism and Christianity.
The Tamil Tigers movement is a political one, they do not claim to be a religious group. Neither Christianity nor Judaism requires non-believers to be second class citizens nor do either advocate (Aside from the Crusades, which were nearly 1000 years ago) conversion by the sword. Yes, Christians believe that if you aren't a Christian you will go to hell, but, Christians are not in such a hurry to speed the process that they will explode themselves to ensure your death.
 

CoryKS

Senior Master
Joined
Aug 30, 2006
Messages
4,403
Reaction score
183
Location
Olathe, KS
Suicide bombing is so last year. The new hotness is strapping explosives on a 1-year-old.

Meanwhile, horrifying new details emerged last night of the attempt by suicide bombers to kill Ms Bhutto on her return home from exile last month.
Investigators from Ms Bhutto's Pakistan People's Party said yesterday they believed the bomb, which killed 170 people and left hundreds more wounded, was strapped to a one-year-old child carried by its jihadist father.
They said the suicide bomber tried repeatedly to carry the baby to Ms Bhutto's vehicle as she drove in a late-night cavalcade through the streets of Karachi.
"At the point where the bombs exploded, Benazir Bhutto herself saw the man with the child and asked him to come closer so that she could hug or kiss the infant," investigators were reported as saying. "But someone came in between and a guard felt that the man with the child was not behaving normally. So the child was not allowed to come aboard Benazir's vehicle."
Ms Bhutto is said to have told investigators she recalls the face of the man who was carrying the infant. She has asked to see recordings made by television news channels to try to identify the man.

Say what you want about the Tamil Tigers or ancient Judeo-Christian text. As far as I'm concerned, it's a one-contestant race to the bottom. Dehumanization, indeed.
 

Empty Hands

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
4,269
Reaction score
200
Location
Jupiter, FL
The Tamil Tigers movement is a political one, they do not claim to be a religious group.

So? You said that Muslims were the only people that had ever used suicide bombing, and that they invented it. Both demonstrably false.

Neither Christianity nor Judaism requires non-believers to be second class citizens nor do either advocate (Aside from the Crusades, which were nearly 1000 years ago) conversion by the sword. Yes, Christians believe that if you aren't a Christian you will go to hell, but, Christians are not in such a hurry to speed the process that they will explode themselves to ensure your death.

Islam does not "require" 2nd class citizenship for non-believers either, as you will find many modern Muslims who do not subscribe to these hadith. If you want to go back to the Caliphate for your evidence, I would then point you to the treatment of the conversos in Christian Spain. Similarly, if a Jew or Christian so desired, they could easily use God's instructions about the Canaanites to Joshua & Co. (for instance) as support for such a position.

You will also find many modern, although fringe, fundamentalists who do advocate forced conversion ("We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity." -Ann Coulter). Similarly, you will find many modern Muslims who do not believe in forced conversion.

Lastly, you won't find many Christians blowing themselves up these days because by and large they don't need to. Such tactics are employed by those on the short end of the stick in asymmetrical power conflicts, and your average Christian these days tend to live in more powerful countries. Where Christians do live in such areas, you will find the occasional one supporting such tactics - such as the sprinkling of Christians in the Tamil Tigers or George Habash, Christian founder of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine, who split with Arafat after the Oslo accords for "selling out".

Human behavior and rationalization is a weird and wonderful thing, and you basically just aren't going to be able to limit suicide bombing as a tactic to a religious group you just so happen not to like.
 

Ray

Master Black Belt
Joined
Dec 8, 2004
Messages
1,391
Reaction score
53
Location
Creston, IA
Islam does not "require" 2nd class citizenship for non-believers either, as you will find many modern Muslims who do not subscribe to these hadith. If you want to go back to the Caliphate for your evidence, I would then point you to the treatment of the conversos in Christian Spain. Similarly, if a Jew or Christian so desired, they could easily use God's instructions about the Canaanites to Joshua & Co. (for instance) as support for such a position.
I believe that either sharia or the Koran institutes the jizya. I further believe that non-Muslims in an area using sharia law cannot build new churches or synagoges. I am under the impression that non-Muslim religions cannot proselytize where sharia is in force. There are several other things that come to mind but these will suffice to show that probably non-Muslims do become 2nd class citizens under Sharia.[/quote]
 

Empty Hands

Senior Master
Joined
Feb 7, 2007
Messages
4,269
Reaction score
200
Location
Jupiter, FL
I believe that either sharia or the Koran institutes the jizya. I further believe that non-Muslims in an area using sharia law cannot build new churches or synagoges. I am under the impression that non-Muslim religions cannot proselytize where sharia is in force. There are several other things that come to mind but these will suffice to show that probably non-Muslims do become 2nd class citizens under Sharia.
[/quote]

In some countries yes, in some no, and all in those that claim to follow shari'a. The actual behavior of muslims and muslim countries is too varied to claim that the Quran or Islam demands any such behavior. In Saudi Arabia it is illegal for members of other religions to bring in religious paraphenalia like bibles or to proselytize. On the other hand, in the largest Islamic nation on Earth, Indonesia, it is not illegal, and Christian missionaries operate there. In yet other Islamic countries, long standing communities of Christians and Jews have been living peaceably for centuries, such as the Druze.
 
Top