Israel & Lebanon

[mrhnau]

Then, look at what the PNAC desires ....

And look at the events in the world ....

Do they line up at all? The PNAC original document is, what, 10, 12 years old? These guys either have a fabulous crystal ball ... or they have worked methodically toward their objectives, either in the administration or not.

Then, what other items are in their objectives, that have not yet come to pass?

ok, here is where I have a problem. There are somewhat clear motives behind every political group. There are clear motives behind private groups. Are we going to start eyeballing all of the members of the AARP when some kind of Social Security reform is passed? Will we start investigating and crying about the NAACP when minority right legislation is written? Would it be suprising that any bill written removing restrictions on gun laws would be favorable to the members of the NRA?

What about the lobbies? Members of the NRA/AARP/NAACP clearly are working in Washington, making their cases to congress and the president. Is this not how the legal process these days works? Some group proposes an idea and others make opposite claims. This does not make NRA/AARP/NAACP dire groups with evil motives. Are any members of congress members of any of these organizations either now or in the past? If so, why?

Does congress make laws -only- because NRA/AARP/NAACP wants them? Wouldn't it be CLEARLY stupid to pass laws they want that are not good for the American people, or laws that have NO support or logical purpose behind them? Would it be in the interest of America to give all Americans access to fully automatic weapons? Or some other strange desire specific to these groups?

So, lets extend this analogy... are the PNAC claims clearly outrageous? Would they be in the best interest of the country? Is the government following these desires ONLY because PNAC is making them? Other groups make claims about how the world should be, shall we jump on them next if anything in their lists of wants is experienced?



Lets tie this directly to the current crisis. Its clear the US has supported Israel for a long time now, and likely will continue. So, should Israel NOT defend itself to satisfy your paranoia over the PNAC? Should we start allowing crazies to do crazy things to satisfy your fear over PNAC? Should we encourage instability and leadership in the Middle East that is opposed to our nations best interests? Should Israel and the US write up a list of things it should NOT do that coincides with the PNAC stated claims/desires? If thats the case, lets do that with every group in the US. NRA, NAACP, AARP. Every group with ANY form of lobby or leadership that has any vision on how the world or the US should be.

I don't find a conspiracy when a groups claims happen to coincide with the governments position. What I find is that people in that group think in the same manner, and given current circumstances made decisions that are similar. Unless you can convince me of some form of mind-control, membership of a majority of congress/cabinet/judiciary or something, I'm not all that interested. Unless they have done something clearly illegal, I don't understand the difference between them and any organization with a lobby or any organization with membership that has any kind of vision. Sorry, simply don't see it right now.

Don is right... conspiracy theories are so much fun. You can't disprove them easily, but you sure can't easily prove them.

 

[ginshun]

As far as this region goes the logic is reletively simple to me.

If the Arabs lay down there weapons and stop fighting, the war with Isreal stops.

If Isreal lays down its weapons and stops fighting, the Arabs destroy Isreal.

Thats pretty much the plain truth of it at this point. Everything that lead up to the situation as it now sits is kind of irrelevent. As things are right now, the Isrealis have very limited choices. Either they leave, they fight or they die. Thats really about all there is to it.

I can't say I blaim them for fighting.

Edit: That was a good post mrhnau. I doubt that it will be taken to heart by the people your are responding to though. The way they see it a law or objective cannot be good for the counrty unless they agree with it 100%. They don't agree with anything the PNAC advocates, therefore any of its objectives that get accomplished are not accomplished becasause they are better for the country / world, but rather because the PNAC controls the country / world. Probably from some clandestine hideout and useing mind control over weak minded people like our president.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I am not getting into this thread, but there has been a few questions about the history of the region, maybe this will help

The Readers Digest version of Palestine/Israeli history in the region.

All that follows are excerpts from
Terrorism 4th edition
2002 Update
Jonathan R. White
Part 2
Chapter 7

1915 in return for support Arab support against the Turks the British made an unclear promise to support a United Arab homeland after the War (WW I). The Arabs believed they had been promised the ancient Arab realm of Islam.

1917 The Balfour Declaration In return for Palestinian Jewish support against the Turks Britain promises a Jewish national homeland in Palestine.

In 1922 Great Britain received permission from the League of Nations to create the protectorate of Transjordan. This gave Britain the control of Palestine and placed then in the center of Middle Eastern affairs. This made neither Arabs nor Jewish happy. The Arabs felt they were lied to and the Jews wanted a homeland.

The violence began in 1920

In the 1940s both Arabs and Jews believed the only solution to the Palestine issue was to expel the British.

After WW II more Jewish peoples immigrated to the Middle East even though the British had put a ban on such immigration.

In 1947 the UN decided that Palestine should be split, part to the Jewish part to the Arabs. The Jewish were elated the Arabs were not.

For the record in the early Palestinian Jewish conflict the first to use terrorist tactics were used by a Jewish Terrorist organization called Irgun Zvai Leumi and it was used against the British. Right around the same time of the UN resolution to split Palestine.

 

[mantis]

As far as this region goes the logic is reletively simple to me.

If the Arabs lay down there weapons and stop fighting, the war with Isreal stops.

If Isreal lays down its weapons and stops fighting, the Arabs destroy Isreal.

Thats pretty much the plain truth of it at this point. Everything that lead up to the situation as it now sits is kind of irrelevent. As things are right now, the Isrealis have very limited choices. Either they leave, they fight or they die. Thats really about all there is to it.

Why? how did you come to this "plain TRUTH"? How's it that "logic"?! and why doesnt israel have other choices?

 

[Cryozombie]

Man, this is gettin old.

Personally, I think the Libs and Cons need to just **** and get it over with.

 

[michaeledward]

Personally, I think the Libs and Cons need to just **** and get it over with.

I'm not quite sure how this issue breaks down on the 'Liberal/Conservative' lines....

I mean, I know that I am fairly liberal on domestic policy, but how does that fit with actions by other states? But, because I want the bombs to stop dropping, that's a liberal issue?

 

[Cryozombie]

I'm not quite sure how this issue breaks down on the 'Liberal/Conservative' lines....

Its more the same people arguing back and forth than the specific issue.

I swear I could hold up a shaped piece of wood and ask "what is this?" and accurately guage who would argue whether it was a "Bat" or a "Club"

 

[Rich Parsons]

Check out this article: http://www.yahoo.com/s/357130

 

[michaeledward]

This article by Michael Hirsh makes some of the points I am arguing. No doubt, he will be painted as a member of the 'Liberal Media'.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14046789/site/newsweek/

In strategic terms, the U.S. endorsement of Israel's retaliation against Hizbullah had some merit at the start, within limits: a Lebanon with an armed Hizbullah in its midst was never going to graduate to real democracy. The Israeli action is also, in a way, a proxy war against Iran and its nuclear program. Reducing Iran's influence in the region by degrading the power of its principal means of terror (and therefore of retaliation) is in America's interest, as well.

 

[ginshun]

Why? how did you come to this "plain TRUTH"? How's it that "logic"?! and why doesnt israel have other choices?

Maybe its Hizbulla's stated intentions the wipe Isreal off the map that drew me to that conclusion.

What exactly do you think Isreals other options are?

Its seems as though you guys are off the opinion that since Isreals actions are in the USA's best interst, that somehow makes them automatically wrong and part of some big consirousy.

 

[mantis]

Maybe its Hizbulla's stated intentions the wipe Isreal off the map that drew me to that conclusion.

What exactly do you think Isreals other options are?

Its seems as though you guys are off the opinion that since Isreals actions are in the USA's best interst, that somehow makes them automatically wrong and part of some big consirousy.

you are mixing facts. It's hamas that say Israel needs to be wiped out. Hizbullah wants 2 things: withdrawal from lebanese farms of Shabaa, and exchange hostages.

other options for israel is to agree to allow palestine to declare a state with the 1967 borders and go forward with the peace process. Do not tell me the arabs want to wipe israel because arabs only react to offensive actions of israel. Arabs are the least proactive nation on this planet.

 

[ginshun]

you are mixing facts. It's hamas that say Israel needs to be wiped out. Hizbullah wants 2 things: withdrawal from lebanese farms of Shabaa, and exchange hostages.

Hamas, Hizbullah whatever. You say potatoe, I say pototoe.

Hamas' own website confirms that it has recieved money and training assistance from Hizbullah. They are not one and the same, but their goals are about as different as Bush's and Cheney's

other options for israel is to agree to allow palestine to declare a state with the 1967 borders and go forward with the peace process.

And that would end all the fighting in Isreal / Palastine?
Whatever it is you're smoking, save some for me, cause it must be good stuff.

Do not tell me the arabs want to wipe israel because arabs only react to offensive actions of israel. Arabs are the least proactive nation on this planet.

I am confused, are Hamas and Hizzbullah not arabs?

 

[Xue Sheng]

Hamas, Hizbullah whatever. You say potatoe, I say pototoe.?

Actually it is more like you say potato and he says tomato.

Hamas' own website confirms that it has recieved money and training assistance from Hizbullah. They are not one and the same, but their goals are about as different as Bush's and Cheney's?

And since Hezbollah took over Palestine Hamas and Hezbollah have been fighting. They are by no means one in the same

If you study the region you will see many assist each other in there cause many splinter off to form other groups and they can be fighting each other and supporting each other at the same time.

And not all people in the Middle East are Rejectionists. Some want peace with Israel some do not. It is an incredibly complicated area of the world and I am not going to type it all up here.

I am confused, are Hamas and Hizzbullah not arabs?

Actually no, they are Palestinians.

And not all Arabs are the same either, for starters some are Sunni and some a Shiite some are Rejectionists some aren’t.

 

[mantis]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5228224.stm

Qana over and over again!
who's the terrorist now?

 

[Blotan Hunka]

WWII whole cities are leveled and its "par for the course". These days, one mistake in precision bombing and everybody is calling it war crimes and the conflict must end. Its all ********. Welcome to war everybody its not pretty and never has been, unfortunately its sometimes necessary for a nations survival.

 

[michaeledward]

WWII whole cities are leveled and its "par for the course". These days, one mistake in precision bombing and everybody is calling it war crimes and the conflict must end. Its all ********. Welcome to war everybody its not pretty and never has been, unfortunately its sometimes necessary for a nations survival.

Which nations' survival are you suggesting was threatened?

 

[mantis]

Which nations' survival are you suggesting was threatened?

regardless. If you say party A needs to survive then the same exact argument is valid for party B unless we are really really biased.

 

[michaeledward]

regardless. If you say party A needs to survive then the same exact argument is valid for party B unless we are really really biased.

This of course is logical, and quite probably true.

But, I'm wondering which of the belligerent groups was actually threatening the survival of anything? It seems to me a hyperbolic claim. Perhaps?

 

[mantis]

This of course is logical, and quite probably true.

But, I'm wondering which of the belligerent groups was actually threatening the survival of anything? It seems to me a hyperbolic claim. Perhaps?

In martial arts if we both are grabbing each other's throats then neither of us would let go because both our lives are threatened.

 

[michaeledward]

In martial arts if we both are grabbing each other's throats then neither of us would let go because both our lives are threatened.

HELLO PROFESSOR FALKEN

WHAT A STRANGE GAME.

THE ONLY WINNING MOVE
IS NOT TO PLAY.

HOW ABOUT A NICE GAME OF CHESS?
​

War Games was on last night.