Is your knife training teaching you about range and how to control it?

Discussion in 'Knife Arts' started by Charlemagne, Aug 22, 2016.

Page 1 of 2
  1. Aug 22, 2016 #1
    Charlemagne

    Charlemagne Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    239
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Texas, USA
    https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1854710588083255


    My title pretty much says it.

    One of the really common things I see when people demo knife (offense or defense), even in most FMA's, is a lack of discussion about controlling range. Tim Waid, who is the head of the PTK organization I train under likes to ask "how did you get there?" when those super sweet videos are posted of people doing cool stuff with the knife.

    In the video above, while you don't see much in the way of lateral movement or use of the triangle, you do see the importance of range. One should also be able to see why medium range with the knife, is so dangerous. There are ways to attack your opponent, particularly their hand, without being in position to get hit yourself. If you do go inside, get in all the way. If you are going to stay out, get out all the way. Medium range is a range to bridge through, not a place to hang out.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  2. Aug 22, 2016 #2
    Kickboxer101

    Kickboxer101 Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2016
    Messages:
    1,189
    Likes Received:
    311
    Trophy Points:
    123
    My knife training goes like this. See a knife get pulled GTFO of there
     
  3. Aug 22, 2016 #3
    Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,417
    Likes Received:
    4,287
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    Yes, from day one.
     
  4. Aug 22, 2016 #4
    Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    4,640
    Likes Received:
    3,204
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    I don't claim to be any kind of expert in using the knife or defending against it, but when I do train or teach anything related to knife work I am very focused on the importance of range.

    One gripe I do have with how some FMA instructors show stuff is that they start new students out with tapping/hubud/flow drills where the students stay right in the kill zone the whole time and they don't immediately make it clear that these are just drills for developing sensitivity and reflexes to give them a chance of surviving for a few seconds in a range where you never want to spend more than a second or two when a knife is involved.

    Personally I'd rather make sure the student understands the importance of controlling distance first, before they get caught up in these sort of close range drills.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Aug 22, 2016 #5
    drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,495
    Likes Received:
    2,984
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Nobody trains exits.
     
  6. Aug 22, 2016 #6
    Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes Senior Master

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    4,640
    Likes Received:
    3,204
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    I do. :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  7. Aug 22, 2016 #7
    drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,495
    Likes Received:
    2,984
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I have started playing with the concept myself. Especially unarmed v knife. Take one dip at that limb and get out.
     
  8. Aug 22, 2016 #8
    Charlemagne

    Charlemagne Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    239
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Texas, USA
    We train them all the time. In fact, it is one of the things which is really emphasized early on.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Aug 22, 2016 #9
    Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,417
    Likes Received:
    4,287
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    knives still scare the bejesus out of me. More than firearms.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  10. Aug 22, 2016 #10
    Danny T

    Danny T Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2002
    Messages:
    3,257
    Likes Received:
    1,588
    Trophy Points:
    238
    Location:
    New Iberia, Louisiana USA
    We don't begin these types of drills until after our students have a good understanding of footwork and body movement first.
    Tapping,Chekete/Echekete, Break-in/Break-out, Segang Labo are all drill platforms with associated footwork and body displacement to enter, tie up and finish or to enter, break off, and egress safely.


    Yes we do!!!

    Long through medium to close range and back out to long. Never stay in medium range.
    In the contradas and recontras sets the ending weapon actions are designed to keep attacking if you are able to or to keep you covered as you exit.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. Aug 22, 2016 #11
    Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Sep 9, 2004
    Messages:
    27,554
    Likes Received:
    1,423
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Las Vegas, Nevada
    Movement is essential in IRT and taught from day one along with range and also Drop Bear, exits.

    Tony, in reference to your quote about some FMA teachers not teaching people to move during drills. Frankly, personally I think that is lazy teaching! When I see people teaching drills where two people stand in the same place I cringe! It is specifically seen with a few guys who just learned a little bit and then went out to teach but you also see it with some seasoned people who should know better!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  12. Aug 22, 2016 #12
    drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Feb 23, 2014
    Messages:
    14,495
    Likes Received:
    2,984
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Ok. Let's see examples of exits. Because that is a major component of maintaining distance.
     
  13. Aug 22, 2016 #13
    Charlemagne

    Charlemagne Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    239
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Texas, USA
    You do, and I think that is because many were never taught it in the first place. Many FMA systems don't seem to consider how to get in an out of range all that much, even those which have tactics for fighting in various ranges. I'm not sure why that is, but it is definitely something I've noticed.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Aug 22, 2016 #14
    Charlemagne

    Charlemagne Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    239
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Texas, USA


    Go from 1:30 - 3:08 in this video and you can see one of the ways we do it with both the long weapon and empty hand. We do the same thing with the knife. Much of the time (not always) this will include ranging footwork on the reverse 45 deg. angle, as is shown above. We often refer to that as the "Universal Evasion Angle", even though there are times when you wouldn't necessarily want to go that direction.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  15. Aug 22, 2016 #15
    hoshin1600

    hoshin1600 Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 16, 2014
    Messages:
    2,271
    Likes Received:
    997
    Trophy Points:
    253
    Would creating distance in order to draw a firearm be considered an "exit"?
    If so then I do exits in two different ways one for firearms and one unarmed called run away
     
  16. Aug 22, 2016 #16
    Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Jun 27, 2011
    Messages:
    7,417
    Likes Received:
    4,287
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Maui
    This is the stuff we do.

     
  17. Aug 22, 2016 #17
    Charlemagne

    Charlemagne Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 19, 2016
    Messages:
    690
    Likes Received:
    239
    Trophy Points:
    58
    Location:
    Texas, USA
    Wise. I call that the "Jessie Owens Technique". Though I suppose I will need to update my name to Usain Bolt.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  18. Aug 25, 2016 #18
    Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 22, 2016
    Messages:
    3,114
    Likes Received:
    1,044
    Trophy Points:
    213
    This is largely how we operate as well. We obviously learn the ranges and how they apply to empty hand, knife, stick/sword etc but beyond the concepts it's "get foot work/zoning down first" then integrate moving between ranges.
     
  19. Aug 25, 2016 #19
    gpseymour

    gpseymour Sr. Grandmaster

    Top Poster Of Month

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2012
    Messages:
    13,493
    Likes Received:
    3,688
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Hendersonville, NC
    That's only workable if they are far enough away that you can do so without getting stabbed in the back. If it's a knife attack, GTFO is not usually an immediate option.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  20. Aug 25, 2016 #20
    Juany118

    Juany118 Senior Master

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    May 22, 2016
    Messages:
    3,114
    Likes Received:
    1,044
    Trophy Points:
    213
    You beat me to it.
     
Page 1 of 2

Share This Page