Is it possible to recoil against a good wrestler?

[Cobra]

When doing a kick, it is allways important to recoil. But what if it is against a good wrestler. I have heard many stories of people in striking arts aren't quick enough to recoil and get their kicks caught. This also means kicks and hand strikes would be useless. But is their some special recoil technique that a wrestler can't catch?

 

[Touch Of Death]

When doing a kick, it is allways important to recoil. But what if it is against a good wrestler. I have heard many stories of people in striking arts aren't quick enough to recoil and get their kicks caught. This also means kicks and hand strikes would be useless. But is their some special recoil technique that a wrestler can't catch?

Why is it "allways" important to recoil? I can punch through a target, ending me up at another starting point of reference. I can also kick through a target. Heck I can punch and continue that punch to work a positional advantage. In short, I reject your premise.
Sean

 

[Marginal]

So, you never rechamber any technique you throw?

 

[Touch Of Death]

So, you never rechamber any technique you throw?

I didn't say that. I just don't like the term "always" being thrown around when its not "always" the case. Interesting you read "never" in my words.
Sean

 

[MichiganTKD]

I do not rechamber my technique after execution. In my opinion, this weakens it by forcing me to retract my leg instead of projecting my power through the target. Now you may ask "What if he grabs it?" I would like to see a wrestler or any grappler be able to stop a well placed kick (or strike) with their hands without getting them broken. I've seen unwitting students try to grab kicks during sparring and get their hands broken.

Another tactic is to let the wrestler grab the foot, retract it (again because I doubt their arms are going to be able to match my leg and hip power), and contact their now exposed body through wide open arms.

 

[Touch Of Death]

I do not rechamber my technique after execution. In my opinion, this weakens it by forcing me to retract my leg instead of projecting my power through the target. Now you may ask "What if he grabs it?" I would like to see a wrestler or any grappler be able to stop a well placed kick (or strike) with their hands without getting them broken. I've seen unwitting students try to grab kicks during sparring and get their hands broken.

Another tactic is to let the wrestler grab the foot, retract it (again because I doubt their arms are going to be able to match my leg and hip power), and contact their now exposed body through wide open arms.

I think you would be suprised at tha amount of force a wrestler can nullify; however, I agree that recoiling is not a goal, just a choice.
Sean

 

[Marginal]

I didn't say that. I just don't like the term "always" being thrown around when its not "always" the case. Interesting you read "never" in my words.
Sean

Since you punch and kick through the target, you have no need to consider rechambering or retracting against a wrestler(better terms for recoil IMO) thusly his premise is not worth consideration. If you do retract from time to time, you cannot wholly reject his premise because you were drawing your conclusion exclusively from the ability to hit through your target.

That aside, I have a hard time buying some of the other thinking floating around this thread. You kick hard, and it's really hard to absorb the hit head on with your hands taking the force directly, so it's impossible to stop a kick? Why can't the wrestler sidestep the kick and grab your never retracted leg? The drill single and double leg takedowns all the time. Don't you folks think that it might... I dunno, somehow apply to that situation?

 

[MJS]

When doing a kick, it is allways important to recoil. But what if it is against a good wrestler. I have heard many stories of people in striking arts aren't quick enough to recoil and get their kicks caught. This also means kicks and hand strikes would be useless. But is their some special recoil technique that a wrestler can't catch?

It depends on what we're talking about here. If you look at alot of the sport karate schools, they almost always rechamber their kicking leg. Why?? So they can throw another one fairly quickly..hence, the rechambering. However, if you look at Muay Thai or any of the MMA events, you never see any rechambering of the kick. It is thrown with the body weight going forward, thereby giving much more power.

As for getting caught...its not so much as grabbing the kicking leg, which of course is possible, but pretty much taking advantage of the kicker being off balance, and coming forward for a takedown.

Mike

 

[MJS]

I do not rechamber my technique after execution. In my opinion, this weakens it by forcing me to retract my leg instead of projecting my power through the target. Now you may ask "What if he grabs it?" I would like to see a wrestler or any grappler be able to stop a well placed kick (or strike) with their hands without getting them broken. I've seen unwitting students try to grab kicks during sparring and get their hands broken.

When you're talking about a wrestler grabbing the kick are you talking about a chambered kick or more of a Thai style kick? It is possible for a grappler to, as the kick is being thrown, to absorb the impact with their body, and continue in for a takedown.

Another tactic is to let the wrestler grab the foot, retract it (again because I doubt their arms are going to be able to match my leg and hip power), and contact their now exposed body through wide open arms.

Do you really think that the wrestler is gonna just stand there and let you retract it?? I dont think so. They will be moving forward at pretty much the same time. The kicker wont have a chance to kick again, due to the fact that they'll be heading down to the ground!!

Mike

 

[Marginal]

When you're talking about a wrestler grabbing the kick are you talking about a chambered kick or more of a Thai style kick? It is possible for a grappler to, as the kick is being thrown, to absorb the impact with their body, and continue in for a takedown.

Regardless of the style of kick, if the wrestler is able to close the gap, getting inside the kick's range mitigates the bulk of the kick's force, and the kicke'rs then on one leg against someone who's an expert at taking you down, throwing you etc.

Even a MT fighter doesn't know the Fist of the Souther Cross for cripe's sake.

Do you really think that the wrestler is gonna just stand there and let you retract it?? I dont think so. They will be moving forward at pretty much the same time. The kicker wont have a chance to kick again, due to the fact that they'll be heading down to the ground!!

Mike

On top of that, a wrestler tends to keep a deep and stable stance. The hip and leg doesn't really have good leverage from that angle to be wrenched from the wrestler's grip. Seems like a good way to hyperextend your knee, pop a hip etc. (Happened to Bo Jackson. He tried to power out of a tackle and...)

 

[MJS]

Regardless of the style of kick, if the wrestler is able to close the gap, getting inside the kick's range mitigates the bulk of the kick's force, and the kicke'rs then on one leg against someone who's an expert at taking you down, throwing you etc.

Yes, I do realize that. I was just curious as to how MichiganTKD thought that that was possible!!

Mike

 

[MichiganTKD]

Reminds me of the fight that was organized years ago between a boxer and a sumo wrestler. The sumo wrestler wanted the boxer to drop down, and boxer wanted the wrestler to stay up. In other words, each wanted the other to fight his way. In the end, nothing was accomplished.
Back to the subject. If a wrestler did grab my foot or leg, theoretically it would be possible to use his body as a base to counteratack, such as jumping off him or setting up a scissors take down. A lot of things could happen. Ultimately, it depends on who has the better strategy.
And yes, I do think with proper training, it is possible to produce leg and hip power that a wrestler cannot beat.
Finally, I think it would be foolish in such a scenario for a kicker to attack first. Let the wrestler come in first.

 

[Gary Crawford]

I think this thread points out the need to be well-rounded.When thinking in street defense-ANYTHING is possible.Most real fights only last a few seconds and almost ALWAYS go to the gound,martial artists or not.I think the fact that you are considering the possibility shows intelegence on your part.If the possibility concerns you,learn some wrestling,Brazilian Jujisu or some other form of grappling.Touch o death makes a good point also as far as"hitting through".I wouldn't worry to much about recoiling,takes too much power out of your kicks,just fight and adapt.

 

[MJS]

]Reminds me of the fight that was organized years ago between a boxer and a sumo wrestler. The sumo wrestler wanted the boxer to drop down, and boxer wanted the wrestler to stay up. In other words, each wanted the other to fight his way. In the end, nothing was accomplished.

A classic example of taking the other person out of his game.

Back to the subject. If a wrestler did grab my foot or leg, theoretically it would be possible to use his body as a base to counteratack, such as jumping off him or setting up a scissors take down.

Only if the wrestler was standing still, which he is not going to be doing. The only other option would be to jump forward into him. By doing this, you'll be taking him down with you, rather than you falling down and him still standing. Of course, doing this is putting you into his world, so having some knowledge of the ground would come in handy here.

A lot of things could happen. Ultimately, it depends on who has the better strategy.

Very true!

And yes, I do think with proper training, it is possible to produce leg and hip power that a wrestler cannot beat.

You'd be surprised at how much leg strength they have. Constantly training for that shoot is going to provide them with some very good strength in the legs.

Finally, I think it would be foolish in such a scenario for a kicker to attack first. Let the wrestler come in first.

Again, this goes back to taking the person out of their game.

Mike

 

[MichiganTKD]

Our Grandmaster's son is studying BJJ. When he first told me, I didn't quite see the logic, since his technique is very good. However, in retrospect, I am beginning to understand why he did it. I do not recommend studying multiple styles simultaneously, but knowing something like BJJ could definitely come in handy.

 

[Marginal]

Back to the subject. If a wrestler did grab my foot or leg, theoretically it would be possible to use his body as a base to counteratack, such as jumping off him or setting up a scissors take down. A lot of things could happen. Ultimately, it depends on who has the better strategy.

Perhaps, but in a close in situation, odds favor the wrestler having the better strategy. You can't jump off a wrestler if they're going for a single leg. It just doens't work. Doubly so against a double leg. All they have to do is catch the leg, work the joint, and you've lost balance. If they're just standing there, they're horrible wrestlers.

And yes, I do think with proper training, it is possible to produce leg and hip power that a wrestler cannot beat.

You should find a wrestler and test your theories out. (Not saying go fight someone, just compare notes and see how realistic things like a leg scissors takedown while your leg's caught really are.)

 

[MJS]

Our Grandmaster's son is studying BJJ. When he first told me, I didn't quite see the logic, since his technique is very good. However, in retrospect, I am beginning to understand why he did it. I do not recommend studying multiple styles simultaneously, but knowing something like BJJ could definitely come in handy.

I currently train in mult. styles and I see nothing wrong with it. In fact, I encourage it!!! However, I do NOT think that it should be done until after the student has a VERY good base art first. Then if they want to crosstrain in something else, that is fine.

Mike

 

[MichiganTKD]

That's actually more of what I had in mind. I was practicing aikido for several months (which I find fascinating BTW), but I had already been involved in TKD for years. What irritates me are people who say "I'm a red belt in tae Kwon Do, a green belt in in hapkido, a blue belt in BJJ, and I've just started practicing Thai Boxing." You need a solid base in one style-minimum 2nd Dan black if not higher-before starting something else. Otherwise it is easy to overload your body and mind with 10 different ways to do something. Start with one style, stay with it and understand it, and then maybe try something else.
When I was studying aikido, the Tae Kwon Do student in me would look at the different holds and locks we studied and think about how I would use TKD to counter them. Interesting mind game, and gave me some insight into how modern TKD developed-maybe this is how this particular form technique developed.

 

[Fortis]

With what I've learned so far, I would avoid a confrontation with a grappler at all costs.