I respect that. But if he made the changes, he "could have used" English! The system was now his and he is American. It might sound wrong to you, but it fits the same bill of what you are telling me.
I respect that. But if he made the changes, he "could have used" English! The system was now his and he is American. It might sound wrong to you, but it fits the same bill of what you are telling me.
This is headed no where.
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
And they all spell it incorrectly. Romaji is the official method of romanization of Japanese for non-Japanese speakers. There are only 5 vowel sounds in Japanese, as opposed to 10 - 12 in English, so the use of the "i" in jitsu is actually the wrong vowel sound for the word jutsu.
I really could care less. He was/is wrong.
You're right... Who cares what is correct... Let's all just do what we want to, expressing ourselves and our personal perspectives... Nobody's right, nobody's wrong... What a wonderful world that would be, right? Whatever...
I'm not talking about using zenkutusu dachi instead of forward stance, or kokutsu dachi instead of back stance. I'm simply addressing the title of your art.
Not sure what the point is about pointing out my nationality... If it is your attempt at trying to say that I shouldn't care so much about what language is used, it is a weak riposte to my arguments about personal responsibility in communication. I am very much concerned about the techniques. I just don't allow my pursuit of martial excellence to end with technique alone. That is a shallow goal. I aspire to know my techniques, their variations, the history of their evolution, the cultural context for the origin and development of my art and the arts that spawned it, the development of other arts, etc.
Again, you are incorrect in your perspective if not your observations... Sure, the karate instructors went to great lengths to make the Americans learning their arts learn the Japanese terms for them... Because it made communication for the teachers easier! They did not speak English well, if at all, and making the students learn a new language is far more in keeping with Japanese teaching tradition than it is for the teachers to learn a new language to pass on what they know. Since the concept of Japanese national identity is one that borders on fanatic racism at times, maintaining the cultural identity and orientation of their arts was also of great concern.
What I am saying is that if you use the language use it right or not at all...
As far as your jab about my teacher not simply using English - nice try, but we do. In common teaching and training, the English translations of form names, weapons, postures, etc., are all done in English. When the Chinese term is shorter and more readily conveys the concept behind the words than the English translation would, we use the Chinese (as do you when you discuss chi sao).
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
Only because you cling to what you think is right even when you can be proven wrong... Development and evolution come about by seeing errors and correcting them.
Seeing errors and remaining blind to their existence, or holding fast to errors because that is how it has been done for so long, are anathema to the theories of JKD. You should know this.
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #145
Ah, and there it is.
In your opinion based on your limited exposure to traditional arts.
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #146
Soke councils are a joke. Not to mention a disgrace to serious martial arts practioners.
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #147
Originally posted by Yiliquan1
You're right... Who cares what is correct... Let's all just do what we want to, expressing ourselves and our personal perspectives... Nobody's right, nobody's wrong... What a wonderful world that would be, right? Whatever...
I see what your getting at.
Ya, so next time I go and visit one of my friends at their home I will just take a big dump on their living room floor. I they get upset I will just say Hey, thats just me, Im just expressing myself.
Just as we have certain rules to govern proper social behavior we also have rules to govern language and its usage.
Folks that think they can just define words as they see fit must in their own minds rank themselves pretty high on the food chain.
As I said before, my way to say Soke is Bonehead. So if I call someone Bonehead it is not a derogatory remark it is just my way of calling the Soke.
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #148
Actually, to be more accurate, Okinawans (the people that showed the Japanese what Karate is) dont use a lot of complex terms to describe technique.
Also, the Japanese that brought Karate and Jujutsu to the USA didnt go to great lengths to make up any terminology .it is naturally part of their language.
After reading many of your posts and seeing your repies to various question it is obvious you are unqualified about discussing the concepts and culture of Asia and its languages and you are just as unqualified to discuss what traditional arts contain and do not contain.
This is not meant disrespectfully.
However, it seems that when you enter your opinions into the above mentioned areas people seem to have to educate you on basic points far too often.
You can make up your own art, call it whatever you wish.
Bare in mind that when you do this and make certain statements about traditional arts, foreign terminology etc people will ask you questions.
OP
chufeng
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #149
In 1982 a yellow sash in our system (equivalent to green belt) walked into my teacher's office and said..."I've got to lay off training for just a bit...until everyone is at my level of understanding." He REALLY did that...
I was JUST a white sash (equivalent to yellow belt), that is I just got promoted...
I was appalled...
Sifu nodded his head and said...OK, come back when you think you they are ready for you.
This guy showed up sporadically and trained with us...
He never held back (but that's OK, because he didn't have much)
Eventually we were the same rank and I loved it when he showed up...I regularly handed him his ***...whereupon he would go to the office to talk with Sifu and apprise him of my "remarkable" progress...Sifu always played it down..."Yeah, he's starting to catch on...works real hard at it."
Then I passed this guy in rank...he finally went to Sifu and said, OK, it's time for me to get serious again... (Now...what was this guy thinking??? He should have been serious about his training the entire time)
Ultimately, this guy barely passed his black sash test after spending twice as long in our system...I know everyone has there own learning curve...but this guy wasted a lot of time.
We didn't see him after that promotion...
Then, one day, one of his students showed up on this web-site and posted...
Turns out this guy renamed the art...promoted himself to tenth dan and opened SEVERAL schools with black belts in three cities!!!
THAT is why I'm very skeptical when someone claims to start something new...
After seeing the training history of AKJA, I was less concerned with his teaching...he certainly had enough time (more than many) but I was concerned about depth of understanding...that is why his comments regarding "traditional" systems rankled me...he had not spent enough time with ONE traditional system to really evaluate it's effectiveness at ALL of the ranges he describes...Maybe his teachers simply did not know (that would not surprise me)...but I'm willing to learn from anyone...so, I'm willing to carry on a dialogue with him regarding what it is he teaches.
Hopefully, he will be more careful about pointing a scattergun at us "traditionalists" and examine what each of us have to offer...
He seems quick to excite (count to ten AKJA)...and sometimes reads more into the post than is there (a bit paranoid)...
I don't think I've personally insulted him (at least not intentionally) but I am blunt...sorry, you will simply have to deal with that...
Oh, and btw, I have nothing further to add to my above posts.
:asian:
chufeng
I was JUST a white sash (equivalent to yellow belt), that is I just got promoted...
I was appalled...
Sifu nodded his head and said...OK, come back when you think you they are ready for you.
This guy showed up sporadically and trained with us...
He never held back (but that's OK, because he didn't have much)
Eventually we were the same rank and I loved it when he showed up...I regularly handed him his ***...whereupon he would go to the office to talk with Sifu and apprise him of my "remarkable" progress...Sifu always played it down..."Yeah, he's starting to catch on...works real hard at it."
Then I passed this guy in rank...he finally went to Sifu and said, OK, it's time for me to get serious again... (Now...what was this guy thinking??? He should have been serious about his training the entire time)
Ultimately, this guy barely passed his black sash test after spending twice as long in our system...I know everyone has there own learning curve...but this guy wasted a lot of time.
We didn't see him after that promotion...
Then, one day, one of his students showed up on this web-site and posted...
Turns out this guy renamed the art...promoted himself to tenth dan and opened SEVERAL schools with black belts in three cities!!!
THAT is why I'm very skeptical when someone claims to start something new...
After seeing the training history of AKJA, I was less concerned with his teaching...he certainly had enough time (more than many) but I was concerned about depth of understanding...that is why his comments regarding "traditional" systems rankled me...he had not spent enough time with ONE traditional system to really evaluate it's effectiveness at ALL of the ranges he describes...Maybe his teachers simply did not know (that would not surprise me)...but I'm willing to learn from anyone...so, I'm willing to carry on a dialogue with him regarding what it is he teaches.
Hopefully, he will be more careful about pointing a scattergun at us "traditionalists" and examine what each of us have to offer...
He seems quick to excite (count to ten AKJA)...and sometimes reads more into the post than is there (a bit paranoid)...
I don't think I've personally insulted him (at least not intentionally) but I am blunt...sorry, you will simply have to deal with that...
Oh, and btw, I have nothing further to add to my above posts.
:asian:
chufeng
Originally posted by Yiliquan1
And they all spell it incorrectly. Romaji is the official method of romanization of Japanese for non-Japanese speakers. There are only 5 vowel sounds in Japanese, as opposed to 10 - 12 in English, so the use of the "i" in jitsu is actually the wrong vowel sound for the word jutsu.
I really could care less. He was/is wrong.
You're right... Who cares what is correct... Let's all just do what we want to, expressing ourselves and our personal perspectives... Nobody's right, nobody's wrong... What a wonderful world that would be, right? Whatever...
I'm not talking about using zenkutusu dachi instead of forward stance, or kokutsu dachi instead of back stance. I'm simply addressing the title of your art.
Not sure what the point is about pointing out my nationality... If it is your attempt at trying to say that I shouldn't care so much about what language is used, it is a weak riposte to my arguments about personal responsibility in communication. I am very much concerned about the techniques. I just don't allow my pursuit of martial excellence to end with technique alone. That is a shallow goal. I aspire to know my techniques, their variations, the history of their evolution, the cultural context for the origin and development of my art and the arts that spawned it, the development of other arts, etc.
Again, you are incorrect in your perspective if not your observations... Sure, the karate instructors went to great lengths to make the Americans learning their arts learn the Japanese terms for them... Because it made communication for the teachers easier! They did not speak English well, if at all, and making the students learn a new language is far more in keeping with Japanese teaching tradition than it is for the teachers to learn a new language to pass on what they know. Since the concept of Japanese national identity is one that borders on fanatic racism at times, maintaining the cultural identity and orientation of their arts was also of great concern.
What I am saying is that if you use the language use it right or not at all...
As far as your jab about my teacher not simply using English - nice try, but we do. In common teaching and training, the English translations of form names, weapons, postures, etc., are all done in English. When the Chinese term is shorter and more readily conveys the concept behind the words than the English translation would, we use the Chinese (as do you when you discuss chi sao).
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
I wasn't pointing out your identity, I was pointing out from my(American) point of view. The Japanese used their pronunciation of Chuan Fa. We are using our pronunciation of Jujutsu.
There are other authourties than yourself for the reasons of how someone spells a foreign word. Such as Grandmaster Wally Jay whom "I borrowed" the spelling of Jujitsu from. Then there is Professor George Kirby who spells it Ju jitsu.
You haven't proved anything! Just what are these errors you think you have proven to me?
What I think is right for me, is right for me!
What is right for you, does not mean it is right for all!
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
If you were pointing out your identity, then why did you say:
The use of the word "your" indicates you were addressing me, not yourself... Or is that your selective use of the rules of language again?
No. Our pronunciation of jujutsu is "grappling," "groundfighting," or something similar. See, the thing is that the characters are what they are. Those same characters are used through certain countries to represent certain ideas. They are used as common parts of those languages. The words ju and jutsu are neither common nor indiginous to English, though the above terms are. But if you knew more about the languages you are playing with, this wouldn't need to be pointed out...
And they are both still wrong. Go to Japan, take a Japanese language course in a local college, pick up a Japanese language textbook. There is one method of romaji, and one only. Anything else is very simply incorrect, no matter who uses it.
I have given you the corrections for the linguistic errors you continue to make, along with the arguments needed to point out why you are wrong. But because of your terminal monolingualism (or at least your ignorance of Asian languages as they are actually spoken), you continue to use the lame excuse that "this is my way" to validate your continued misuse of certain terms.
You're right again. So when I dump on your living room carpet or urinate on your dining room table, am I just doing what is right for me?
Rules are rules for reasons. Rules don't exist just because people like them, but because we need them to govern our entire community (local and global alike). When we allow individual expression to erode standards, we erode the foundations of whatever it is we are doing. If we do not enforce certain standards of our martial arts community, then mini-mall fraud masters have alibis and excuses for their activities - they are, after all, just doing what they think is right...
Do what you want. I can't stop you. I have simply tried to show you that, after living in Japan, studying Japanese language informally with my Japanese friends and formally in college courses, I may just know the proper use of that language a little better than you do. Like the argument on another thread about the use of shi versus yon for the number 4, and shichi versus nana for the number 7. Just because a bunch of monolingual Americans use the word incorrectly does not make it right.
As a humorous (at least I think so) aside, one of my favorite jokes, and one that was really well received by some of my friends in Japan (from Japan, China, Germany, Canada and England) is as follows:
What do you call someone that speaks two languages?
Bilingual.
What do you call someone that speaks three languages?
Trilingual.
What do you call someone that only speaks one language?
American.
Additionally, the Englishman (actually an English born Irishman) maintains that we Yanks don't actually speak English... I suspect that in most cases he is right!
I told him he needed to learn to talk American more better...Gambarimasu.
:asian:
Originally posted by akja
If your asking for specific techinques then I would have to have knowledge of all or many traditional arts.
You are avoiding telling me anything about your complete art!
Its not realistic to think that no art has weakness or one art is enough. Not in todays martial art world. Weaknesses as I stated are in all arts! Not just traditional arts. But the differances may differ from traditional vs. non-traditional.
If you don't tell me about your art, I can't help you find your weakness.
With all seriousness, you are entitled to your opinions. But you are playing a head game. Tell me about your art and I will try and use your art as an example. I think that is fair.
I did not look at the mpegs. That would be my fault. But I will look a them. I really only went to the page where you had your kata listed.
Why is it that no matter what subject we discuss in these forums, you continually come back to specific techniques being important?
All that any of the techniques are for in any "REAL" martial system, is to train the practitioner in the correct usage of the principles and concepts, that go together to make the "ART".
When all is said and done, it all comes down to something, that is really quite obvious to one and all.......
A KICK IS JUST A KICK, A PUNCH IS JUST A PUNCH.
Another obvious reality is that there is really nothing new under the sun.
--Dave
:asian:
Unfortunately in one regard, this arguement can't really hold water.....
The language that you speak is to some extent ENGLISH, but with an American twist....
For example, Eng. MUM US. MOM
Eng. COLOUR US. COLOR.
Based on what you say in your post, mom and color are wrong. I guess the American pronounciation of ALUMINIUM is also wrong....
I see where you are coming from, and for the most part I agree. Infact some times it can be a bit of a joke.....
Here in Australia, we have a Karotte style known as Go Kan Ryu. From my extremly limited knowledge of any Asian language, this translates loosely to School Of Rape.....
--Dave :asian:
Oh and by the way, here in Australia we speak our own version of English, called Strine. That is actually the way we pronounce the word Australian.
You want to hear the way we pronounce Japanese terminology?
:rofl:
OP
RyuShiKan
Guest
- Thread Starter
- #155
I hac one of his students in my dojo a few years back.
All I can say is :rofl:
Matt Stone
Master of Arts
You know what? I agree with you completely! Though mum vs. mom and color vs. color can sometimes be a pain, I will be the first to point out that not only is American English a painful mutation of English English, it is in an ongoing state of downwardly spiraling flux with the acceptance of modern slang as valid spoken language (i.e. Ebonics).
I am a purist. I think language is our primary skill, since we all use it daily for hours at a time. To be poorly skilled in spoken AND written communication is to demonstrate ignorance every moment of the day. If I feel that strongly about my own native language, you can imagine how strongly I feel about making use of foreign languages properly...
So how does the Aussie pronunciation of Japanese terms sound?
Gambarimasu (maybe Gam-barry-mass?)
:asian:
I did try to lean in those directions more or less, but then they want specifics. The specifics for me may not be the same for you.
For me I explain about covering the ground in what I believe a sufficient manner. I speak primarily of positions, because to me that is the key for that range.
I'm not going to say this technique is better than that technique. Some people just don't like other peoples views of training. Thats understandable, we are all differant, yet we are all one!
So it boils down to that all I was really trying to say before the confusion was that by the way I was taught, if you want to learn how to do a punch or kick, then practice it a thousand times. That would also apply to all ranges. I just beleive that some ranges don't get enough coverage. Thats it, just my view. We know some of us do this and some don't. No big thing.
I'm not trying to convert anyone. If I was I would start a church and lease a cable channel.
Originally posted by Yiliquan1
If you were pointing out your identity, then why did you say:
The use of the word "your" indicates you were addressing me, not yourself... Or is that your selective use of the rules of language again?
No. Our pronunciation of jujutsu is "grappling," "groundfighting," or something similar. See, the thing is that the characters are what they are. Those same characters are used through certain countries to represent certain ideas. They are used as common parts of those languages. The words ju and jutsu are neither common nor indiginous to English, though the above terms are. But if you knew more about the languages you are playing with, this wouldn't need to be pointed out...
And they are both still wrong. Go to Japan, take a Japanese language course in a local college, pick up a Japanese language textbook. There is one method of romaji, and one only. Anything else is very simply incorrect, no matter who uses it.
I have given you the corrections for the linguistic errors you continue to make, along with the arguments needed to point out why you are wrong. But because of your terminal monolingualism (or at least your ignorance of Asian languages as they are actually spoken), you continue to use the lame excuse that "this is my way" to validate your continued misuse of certain terms.
You're right again. So when I dump on your living room carpet or urinate on your dining room table, am I just doing what is right for me?
Rules are rules for reasons. Rules don't exist just because people like them, but because we need them to govern our entire community (local and global alike). When we allow individual expression to erode standards, we erode the foundations of whatever it is we are doing. If we do not enforce certain standards of our martial arts community, then mini-mall fraud masters have alibis and excuses for their activities - they are, after all, just doing what they think is right...
Do what you want. I can't stop you. I have simply tried to show you that, after living in Japan, studying Japanese language informally with my Japanese friends and formally in college courses, I may just know the proper use of that language a little better than you do. Like the argument on another thread about the use of shi versus yon for the number 4, and shichi versus nana for the number 7. Just because a bunch of monolingual Americans use the word incorrectly does not make it right.
As a humorous (at least I think so) aside, one of my favorite jokes, and one that was really well received by some of my friends in Japan (from Japan, China, Germany, Canada and England) is as follows:
What do you call someone that speaks two languages?
Bilingual.
What do you call someone that speaks three languages?
Trilingual.
What do you call someone that only speaks one language?
American.
Additionally, the Englishman (actually an English born Irishman) maintains that we Yanks don't actually speak English... I suspect that in most cases he is right!
Gambarimasu.
:asian:
I could understand you wanted to correct something that you have sen both sides to. But your joke answered explained quite well and I'm sure that you knew that.
Speaking "American" sometimes I do use the word you as referring to us or we or me. An example would be. You know if you run the red light, you will get a ticket. That could be taken as "you' our "us" meaning. We are not supposed to run red lights. Its not a great example but it is honest.
On a second note. considering how close we are to Mexico and the high population of hispanics in America of which I am a part of the hispanic community myself. Should I of take offense to the mispronunciation of the Spanish language.
We are much closer to so many spanish speaking countries and our hispanic population is continually growing. Actually "we" are the number one largest minority in the country by the most recent surveys. Is there a crusade in the works here?
