Is interest in WC declining?

[drop bear]

BJJ has plenty of nerds too.

You got in first. Sorry.

 

[geezer]

You got in first. Sorry.

So Tony got there first. Still, your additional point about BJJ being competitive and hard is important. I believe this is what is missing from WC. We don't have to be MMA. Jits isn't MMA either. But you guys have meaningful competition that tests your skill set. This is what WC needs to evolve and be both real and relevant.

....So we WC guys need to be clear and define exactly what our game, our skill set, is (no more delusions about WC being a "complete" martial art for all ranges, please!) and come up with a competitive format that tests our game.

 

[Eric_H]

....So we WC guys need to be clear and define exactly what our game, our skill set, is (no more delusions about WC being a "complete" martial art for all ranges, please!) and come up with a competitive format that tests our game.

My teacher came up with a fun format about 10 years ago, it was bridge arm (Kiu Sao) rolling that could exit either to chi sao or sparring. You earned points by jumping the circuit (successful change to one of the other modes) where the other guy couldn't keep up, or by dominating in the current circuit (landing controlled strike/showing the following hand not just tippy tap). The intent was to have a forum that we could compete with other southern CMA like Hung Kuen, Bak Mei and Lung Ying where everyone had a chance and could keep each other honest without going in to full out fighting. Never caught on though, even internally.

 

[Steve]

MMA appeals to a particular, down-to-earth athletic crowd, and it's physicality, and ring-tested practicality have definitely taken the competitive "jock" element away from TMA. But another, bigger segment of the population that got into TMA, especially the more esoteric martial arts, were the smart, nerdy, and not-so physically competitive types that enjoyed the (cringe) fantasy of being a warrior, ...a samurai, ...a ninja, ...or a shaolin monk. Say what you will about this group, but they kept the TMA schools running, and some, with experience, actually transcended the wu-xia fantasy aspect and learned how to fight.. ...or perhaps discovered that they had that potential within themselves.

Nowadays, Asian martial arts have lost a lot of that "magical" mystique. China, for example, is no longer seen as an exotic place with secret traditions inaccessibly hidden behind the "bamboo curtain". Instead, it is the place that makes most of our manufactured goods and is seen as a unwelcome competitor in the global economy! The 1970s-1980s fascination with their philosophy, traditional healing methods, and mysterious martial arts is pretty much gone. And the fact that good MMA guys seem to effortlessly dispatch the TMA purists hasn't helped.

Of-course there still are a lot of nerdy folks out there that could still fill our ranks, but they have so many other outlets these days ...cosplay and larping, or if they are a little more physical, they'll try HEMA since it has really cool swords and stuff, or, if they tend to be couch potatoes, they will just play video games.

Honestly, I think MMA took away our athletes, and gaming took away the nerds that have been keeping us going. The majority of those left are older guys (yes, mostly guys) who got hooked on TMA back in the '70s and '80s. And that doesn't bode well for the future of what we do.

So many nerds in BJJ. BJJ actually appeals to nerds in a big way. Edit... I should have read a little bit further in the thread. Lol.

 

[Steve]

So Tony got there first. Still, your additional point about BJJ being competitive and hard is important. I believe this is what is missing from WC. We don't have to be MMA. Jits isn't MMA either. But you guys have meaningful competition that tests your skill set. This is what WC needs to evolve and be both real and relevant.

....So we WC guys need to be clear and define exactly what our game, our skill set, is (no more delusions about WC being a "complete" martial art for all ranges, please!) and come up with a competitive format that tests our game.

Thing is, you can train without competition. Guys don’t really care if you’re there just for fitness or whatever. You’ll just need to be okay getting rolled up, and also with other people progressing much faster.

But I agree with you that a competitive outlet or outlets will allow you to apply your technique. I believe the overall skill level will improve, but you will see the art evolve toward the rule set.

 

[Danny T]

but you will see the art evolve toward the rule set.

Yep.

 

[Steve]

Yep.

Better than the alternative, which is like playing air guitar.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

but you will see the art evolve toward the rule set.

If the WC sticky hand rule set can be set as whoever can put his

- right hand on top of his opponent's left elbow joint (or left upper arm), and
- left hand on top of his opponent's right elbow joint (or right upper arm),

he wins that round, and that round is over, The WC sticky hand training can be used to develop good wrestling skill.

In the following picture, the guy on the

- left has his right hand on top of his opponent's upper arm.
- right has his left hand on top of his opponent's upper arm.

This kind of hand position is important. You want your hand to be

- on top of your opponent's arm, and
- inside of his arm.

In other words, you want to make contact on your opponent's elbow joint (or upper arm). You don't want just to deal with his forearm. This will force you to deal with the "clinching" range.

 

[VPT]

Better than the alternative, which is like playing air guitar.

Do you have something against air guitar?

 

[VPT]

I agree with several points here. Most trad arts should at least engage in proper analysis of what are the core features and skills of the art, ie. what are the bread and butter techniques you need to use the most in a sparring setting, what are the footwork patterns and how you apply them in a living environment and how you make your stuff work.

It cannot be avoided thay when a certain competitive rule set is applied, the practice of training tends to direct itself towards most efficient optimization of actions, tactics and techniques in that given rule set. That's why designing the rules are extremely important. Look at boxing: everything that is sub-optimal to do wearing oversized puffed mittens has been long removed from the practice.

Kickboxing has then developed a modified boxing technique and strategy, which makes your legs less vulnerable; something you never had to worry about in boxing. The clinch that boxers and kickboxers would resort to as a "safe space" is that no longer in Muay Thai. MT rules, however, disallow certain grabbing and throwing actions, so you don't have to worry about them in your clinch strategy, but enter MMA and they suddenly become a genuine threat, forcing you to scale back on some aspects of your Muay Thai clinch game. The list goes on...

Where is Wing Chun and most other kungfu then best at? Barefist knuckle simulation, which allows chi sau range grappling as well as throwing. Ironically, MMA rules might actually get very close, ground level wrestling removed. This would then require kung fu athletes to develop ways of applicable fighting strategies based on the principles of their arts and training methodologies for them, emphasizing certain patterns over others. This kind of evolution just might irritate some more traditionally inclined individuals, but I would like that as an evolution or an update of the pre-sport science training regimes.

BTW, I started training MMA few weeks back. It has been a real eye opener.

 

[VPT]

My teacher came up with a fun format about 10 years ago, it was bridge arm (Kiu Sao) rolling that could exit either to chi sao or sparring. You earned points by jumping the circuit (successful change to one of the other modes) where the other guy couldn't keep up, or by dominating in the current circuit (landing controlled strike/showing the following hand not just tippy tap). The intent was to have a forum that we could compete with other southern CMA like Hung Kuen, Bak Mei and Lung Ying where everyone had a chance and could keep each other honest without going in to full out fighting. Never caught on though, even internally.

I can see why that never took off. It sounds more like an extension of the game that chi sau is instead of an unconstrained application of skills that sparring offers. Oh, what is kiu sau rolling?

 

[KPM]

I've noticed getting fewer inquiries regarding WC and no new students at our club in a while. And even though we have always been an adult class, the average age seems to go up every year. And I think I'm seeing something similar on this forum.

Maybe it's just the way things are going lately. Any thoughts?

The people that just want to do something physical, get in a work out, be part of a group, get out of the house, etc...... have yoga, Tai Chi, zumba, gym membership, pilates, etc to choose from. A LOT more choices than just 10 years ago. The people that want to learn to defend themselves, to fight, to "kick ***", to feel like a martial arts movie star, etc.....now have multiple kickboxing, MMA and BJJ classes to choose from. ALL of these will be more appealing than traditional martial arts simply because they can demonstrate effectiveness right away in sparring. The typical "Joe off the street" can watch one of those classes and see it being used effectively. So yeah. I think we are going to see a decline in ALL traditional martial arts including Wing Chun. Because its becoming tougher and tougher for them to compete in the marketplace.

 

[Steve]

Do you have something against air guitar?

LOL. Being serious, absolutely not, if air guitar is your goal. If the goal is to be really good at air guitar, you are all set. If the goal is to be really good at playing an actual guitar, you aren't going to make a lot of progress.

Probably a more apropos analogy would be learning to play an actual guitar by practicing continually on a guitar that has no strings. You practice the fingering and the strumming, but never actually get a feel for what real strings look like, never develop the callouses or the feel for how to use the pick. You might be a little ahead of a person who's never held a guitar at all, but there is a functional limit on how far you can progress.

But if you decide that playing an actual guitar isn't really the goal. Instead, you're learning to play a stringless, silent guitar, then THAT will become the new application. You will probably find a lot of meaning in it, and may eventually decide that everything you need is there. No need for strings or music. If you play long enough, and become a master of stringless guitar, the music will be there when necessary.

Taking this analogy even further, there are varying types of application within martial arts: cops, bouncers, MMA, security guards, etc. The skills are similar and can cross over with some effort, but are not exactly the same. Similarly, people who actually play guitars don't all play the same kind of guitar: 12 string, 6 string, 4 string (tenor). And there are different applications, from classical to mariacci to jazz to blues to rock and roll and all other kinds of variations. Can Ottmar Liebert play the blues? I don't know. Maybe... but it's not a given because there is different application, in the same way that a pro MMA fighter can't just be a cop or a cop can't just be a bouncer.

My core point here is simply that I think if you guys are interested in promoting the style, think about what your stated application is. What are you selling? Self defense? Fighting skill? Health and fitness? What is it?

And then think about what you are actually able to apply. Do they match? If there is no functional application, then consider how you might fill that void so that the style doesn't auto-cannibalize.

 

[Xue Sheng]

I've noticed getting fewer inquiries regarding WC and no new students at our club in a while. And even though we have always been an adult class, the average age seems to go up every year. And I think I'm seeing something similar on this forum.

Maybe it's just the way things are going lately. Any thoughts?

I apologize, I did not read every post in this thread before I posted this, and maybe this has already been mentioned.

All it takes is another "Good" Ip Man movie and the popularity will return. This is why many marital arts get popular, they are in the media. But eventually, that popularity will fade

 

[Eric_H]

I can see why that never took off. It sounds more like an extension of the game that chi sau is instead of an unconstrained application of skills that sparring offers. Oh, what is kiu sau rolling?

And therein lies the problem with "standardizing WC." For us, Chi Sao isn't a game or looping sensitivity exercise, it's touch based combat response. We don't roll like any of the yip man branches do. Someone with the viewpoint you've expressed would probably look at what we're doing and say "That's not chi sao."

Kiu Sao Rolling is a set of different single and double armed platforms, more based on forearm leverage and facing changes than on Taan, Bong and Fuk.

 

[VPT]

My core point here is simply that I think if you guys are interested in promoting the style, think about what your stated application is. What are you selling? Self defense? Fighting skill? Health and fitness? What is it?

And then think about what you are actually able to apply. Do they match? If there is no functional application, then consider how you might fill that void so that the style doesn't auto-cannibalize.

This is extremely important. If you want people to train what you are selling, you should coach them into doing it in a manner that is effective based on the requirements of that goal. If you are training for sports, you should spend less time in dealing with over-committed right-hand lunging punches with extended arms and start to worry about jabs, feinted punches and moving opponents. If you are training for good self-defence, you should include scenario training, psychology, judicial knowledge and only focus on the common social and non-social forms of violence and perpetrator behavior. For the attacks, you should have one tried, tested and true response (or max 2) that you spend lots of time drilling on. From an RBSD perspective looking at Wing Chun, you don't even need any forms or neither would they direct you towards improvement in self-defence. You should also ditch maybe 75 % or more of the individual techniques you know.

If you are selling Wing Chun either as health or as fitness, in the case of former, you should be able to come up with and explain all the benefits that training Wing Chun can bring ("chi sau is a form of meditation/ training the SLT strengthens your joints and improves posture"); in the case of latter, people should get sweaty, tired and happy. But then again, why would people choose Wing Chun instead of yoga, taiji, pilates, crossfit, or the gym?

 

[VPT]

And therein lies the problem with "standardizing WC." For us, Chi Sao isn't a game or looping sensitivity exercise, it's touch based combat response. We don't roll like any of the yip man branches do. Someone with the viewpoint you've expressed would probably look at what we're doing and say "That's not chi sao."

Kiu Sao Rolling is a set of different single and double armed platforms, more based on forearm leverage and facing changes than on Taan, Bong and Fuk.

I've always thought that chi sau gets hard as soon as punches are pulled. Which lineage do you train in?

Oh, BTW, based on my training, Bak Mei does not have chi sau/kiu sau/kakie training. It kinda goes against the style.

 

[Cephalopod]

We don't roll like any of the yip man branches do.

Alright, you piqued my curiosity with that one!
I assume that your not referring to your kiu sao rolling as you said above that it didn't catch on.
I've seen and felt some pretty huge variations of chi sao within the Ip Man sphere. Can you elaborate on how yours is different? Thanks!

 

[TMA17]

I can't really add much to this other than to say I joined this forum because I developed an interest in WC at the age of 41. I grew up playing sports and always enjoyed boxing. I remember watching UFC when it first came out in High School. A friend brought over the first few UFC matches on VHS. I was so curious and interested in it because growing up in the 80's, Bruce Lee was the guy.....it was really exciting to watch all the styles go head to head.

Once Gracie/BJJ dominated, along with wrestling, my view of traditional type arts changed. After spending a few months on here however, I look at things differently once again.

MMA has certainly cut into boxing and traditional martial arts markets. It's starting to even influence the Chinese. My thoughts though are you can make any style work if you practice it hard enough. It also ultimately comes down to what you are seeking from an art - self defense, hobby, conditioning etc.

I have stopped going to my WC school for now. I was going to try another one in Philly ,but am holding off for the time being. I'm current trying out yet another MMA gym that does Muay Thai/BJJ and Crossfit (no interest in that). I definitely plan on going back to WC at some point. Right now MT is what I'm enjoying most. I like the contact and physical nature of it. What I really liked about WC were the forms. They are very fun to practice. WC is an awesome art. And even with its flaws, which all arts have, it has a lot to offer as most arts do, whether traditional or not. At the end of the day it's all movements...

I want to also add that I think what Adam Chan does is fantastic for WC. I think he as a person, Sifu and his views on WC are outstanding.

 

[Eric_H]

I've always thought that chi sau gets hard as soon as punches are pulled. Which lineage do you train in?

Oh, BTW, based on my training, Bak Mei does not have chi sau/kiu sau/kakie training. It kinda goes against the style.

I'm a Hung Fa Yi guy, and yeah it does get harder, then it complicates if you have people not respecting the hands, which is common.

You'd know better than I if you've trained Bak Mei, I've only ever had conversations with guys from Zhong Lo's school and Eddie Chong's.

Alright, you piqued my curiosity with that one!
I assume that your not referring to your kiu sao rolling as you said above that it didn't catch on.
I've seen and felt some pretty huge variations of chi sao within the Ip Man sphere. Can you elaborate on how yours is different? Thanks!

Kiu Sao is a major part of our system, that particular "game" didn't catch on, but Kiu Sao as a platform/strategy is our bread and butter. Our line's view on Chi Sao is mostly that it's something you use to counter an opponent's skill (he neutralizes or breaks your kiu sao) or because you got caught unawares (You're a beat behind and need to stick/stabilize) or you're using it as a strategy (2 hand trapping).

My time in the Moy Yat clan showed me this progression:
Saan Sau/Free application-> Single hand Dan Chi Sao -> Jip Sao Jau Sao -> Poon Sao -> Luk Sao -> Toi Ma -> Change ups and traps -> Advanced topics (energy usage, chi na, whatever).

I think that's relatively standard, with certain lineage specific variations (VT guys put Lat Sao in the mix etc).

Hung Fa Yi tends to follow a different set of guidelines for chi sao training, keep in mind I might have this a bit off, I'm still learning:

Intercepting -> Kiu Sao Engagement -> Kiu Sao Rolling/Varying Platforms (think I've learned about 20 or so of them)-> Chi Kiu (Sliding the bridge) -> 4-Gate Ying Jong Faat Chi Sao -> 3 Gate Chi Sao -> Reference Point Tahn Bong Fuk Chi Sao (Single Hand) -> Chi Kiu Chi Sao (2 handed) -> Saam Sing Jong Tahn Bong Fuk Chi Sao (1 or 2 handed)-> Tahn Bong Fuk Chi Sao Trapping Hands (2 Handed).

As for the specifics of how they're different in application, I'd need to be face to face w/ you to show it. It's just not something that's easily explainable over text. The rubric of what's considered "good structure" is just vastly different between the two systems.