Is being a cop self defense

[Mephisto]

Here's my issue: I don't disagree that competition helps. However, every time I state that, someone takes the opportunity to state that competition is better than SD training. There's zero reliable proof in either direction. All we can do is interpolate. In my experience, if someone is well-trained for self-defense, then defending against an untrained attacker is easy, except when it isn't. I've heard the same from folks who trained for competition.

Let's be clear, all competition is not equal. I won't for a moment accept that training in kicks-only competition is anything close to as useful for self-defense as either boxing, MMA, Judo, or self-defense training. Nothing wrong with it, but it's not going to prepare someone for street defense nearly as well. Still, it's better than no training, and I've seen videos of those folks using it on the street.

It's about HOW people train, and I can train with resistance without competing, and have done so. That's part of self-defense training. If it's not, then it's not really self-defense training.

I agree you don't have to compete to train self defense. I just wager that a fighter (in some cases) is better prepared than someone who hasn't experienced an opponent who does everything in their power to stop you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I agree you don't have to compete to train self defense. I just wager that a fighter (in some cases) is better prepared than someone who hasn't experienced an opponent who does everything in their power to stop you.

We'd have to define "everything in their power". Obviously, we won't use that literally in relation to martial arts. Nobody is trying their best to actually kill their opponent (in competition) or partner (in a school). I have trained with folks in situations where the idea was simply to stop each other. We did what we could, knowing everything we knew, using all we had. Except that we held back enough to prevent injury. In my opinion, injuries are anathema to self-defense training. If I break an arm/hand/foot, there are several weeks where I'm far below capacity for defending myself. Competitors take that risk, and some suffer that consequence. It's a choice. Are they better prepared for a savage attack? Maybe or maybe not - (we can get fairly savage in our attacks - far more so than you'd expect to see in a competition). One thing the fighter will have is better reaction to being hit hard. That's their biggest advantage, in my opinion.

 

[ballen0351]

I realize not every cop always has back up, but the officer does have other tools at his or her disposal as you point out

same tools anyone else in this state can buy and use.

I'm not downplaying the dangers cops face at work. I'm just saying the experience cops have doesn't apply to most people and its not something you can replicate outside of law enforcement and security

Its not really about the dangers a cop faces, However its no more dangerous for a cop to confront an armed robber as it is for thevictim thats confronted by the robber. Dead is dead the out come can be the same regardless of the clothes you have one

. Additionally, cops aren't better at martial arts than anyone else, I've trained along side cops and they're regular people. But I do appreciate the perspective they can add to training.

Thats never been the argument. This is about the mental aspect of self defense and how training in the gym or ring cant prepare you for the mental and emotional part of self defense. It wasn't even about Cops that was just an example I also used Military, A kid growing up in a gang infested area who lost several family members to gang violence, even criminals defending against other criminals. Steve fixated on the Cop thing because he loves me.

There may be a difference between fear of death and fear of losing a fight. However, our coach still teaches us that things can go wrong in a ring and you might not walk out, there are rules but you must protect yourself and take the fight seriously, freak accidents can happen, so maybe it depends.

So your going to compare freak accidents that occur in the safety of a sporting event to real world violence?

I'd say my limited competition experience and the adrenaline felt was comparable to steer altercations I've been in, but they didn't involve weapons.

Have you ever really had to defend your life? Not a bar fight or street fight but someone really tried to end your life?

All I can say is the experience cops have from events on the job are in a similiar vein to the experience competitive fighters have.

I disagree. There is a certain level of safety in Competitive fighting. You have a ref, corner people, weight classes, rules, Doctors on stand by, its one on one, and both of the fighters have agreed to the fight and to the rules. Also for the most part fighters respect each other and while they want to win they dont want to kill or permanently injure each other. Thats why competition isn't comparable to real world violence. Not just violence Cops face but violence many victims of attacks face. The physical part sure a punch is a punch it doesn't matter if its on the street or the ring. They arn't exactly the same degree of difficulty but close. In the ring your punching another skilled fighter so landing the effective stick may be harder. On the street the level of skill the opponent has may be less(however criminals train too) but you have environmental aspects to fight your not on a flat level ring you may be on a hill, or slippery wet grass, or gravel, there may be more attackers then one so they both have difficulties

It's something you have to experience yourself and it can't be passed on. A cop can teach someone what to watch out for, but until you've had a weapon pulled on you or a guy flip out on you out of know where you haven't had the experience to deal with that. Same for a fighter, you can teach someone to fight but until they've been in competition they're not an experienced fighter.

My goal isn't to be an experienced fighter its to survive.

 

[Tgace]

I think this thread is a case study of how there is a lack of a universally accepted definition of "self defense".

 

[Mephisto]

same tools anyone else in this state can buy and use.

Its not really about the dangers a cop faces, However its no more dangerous for a cop to confront an armed robber as it is for thevictim thats confronted by the robber. Dead is dead the out come can be the same regardless of the clothes you have one

Thats never been the argument. This is about the mental aspect of self defense and how training in the gym or ring cant prepare you for the mental and emotional part of self defense. It wasn't even about Cops that was just an example I also used Military, A kid growing up in a gang infested area who lost several family members to gang violence, even criminals defending against other criminals. Steve fixated on the Cop thing because he loves me.

So your going to compare freak accidents that occur in the safety of a sporting event to real world violence?

Have you ever really had to defend your life? Not a bar fight or street fight but someone really tried to end your life?

I disagree. There is a certain level of safety in Competitive fighting. You have a ref, corner people, weight classes, rules, Doctors on stand by, its one on one, and both of the fighters have agreed to the fight and to the rules. Also for the most part fighters respect each other and while they want to win they dont want to kill or permanently injure each other. Thats why competition isn't comparable to real world violence. Not just violence Cops face but violence many victims of attacks face. The physical part sure a punch is a punch it doesn't matter if its on the street or the ring. They arn't exactly the same degree of difficulty but close. In the ring your punching another skilled fighter so landing the effective stick may be harder. On the street the level of skill the opponent has may be less(however criminals train too) but you have environmental aspects to fight your not on a flat level ring you may be on a hill, or slippery wet grass, or gravel, there may be more attackers then one so they both have difficulties

My goal isn't to be an experienced fighter its to survive.

I don't know about our views on competitive fighting, we seem to differ. Their are rules but fighters take advantage of those rules and do everything they can to win. A ko can win a fight, fighters try to knock each other out. The ko, the tap, the ippon, are all symbolic of severe injury. A ref stops the fighter from continuing to strike a ko'ed opponent. Some fighters show more respect than others but there are no guarantees. It doesn't really matter though. What do you suggest everyone who is serious about martial arts do? Become a cop/military/security? I don't think that's a feasable option. Competition is a more feasable option but it's still not something everyone can do. However, anyone from any career and walk of life can go to a gym a train with experienced fighters and learn how to handle an aggressive attacker. I would still recommend they also look into or read some material on soft self defense techniques (situational awareness, deescalation, ect) but not everyone can quit what they're doing and change to a career dealing with criminals and street thugs.

 

[jks9199]

There is a story about several blind men and an elephant. I'm not repeating it as it's rather well known, but each describes the elephant based on the relatively small portion they had encountered; one as a tree trunk, another a snake, and so on. Self defense, fighting, and violence are like that elephant, and the "experts" (and the rest of us not so experts) are the blind men.... We ea h describe the small part we see and deal with. Where I work as a cop is different from where ballen works. Being a cop is different from working corrections, or in an ER. A bounced brings another viewpoint. A pro or semi-pro fighter has a different take, just like a redneck in a bar. None are right... and they all are right. Rather than arguing over who has the better perspective, why not listen and take what is useful?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I don't know about our views on competitive fighting, we seem to differ. Their are rules but fighters take advantage of those rules and do everything they can to win. A ko can win a fight, fighters try to knock each other out. The ko, the tap, the ippon, are all symbolic of severe injury. A ref stops the fighter from continuing to strike a ko'ed opponent. Some fighters show more respect than others but there are no guarantees. It doesn't really matter though. What do you suggest everyone who is serious about martial arts do? Become a cop/military/security? I don't think that's a feasable option. Competition is a more feasable option but it's still not something everyone can do. However, anyone from any career and walk of life can go to a gym a train with experienced fighters and learn how to handle an aggressive attacker. I would still recommend they also look into or read some material on soft self defense techniques (situational awareness, deescalation, ect) but not everyone can quit what they're doing and change to a career dealing with criminals and street thugs.

I haven't seen anyone suggest that we all must be cops to learn self-defense. The point made by me and others is that cops' experience is valuable and comparable to civilian self-defense in some cases.

And I still don't believe that an "experienced fighter" must be someone who competes in competitions. Someone who tests their skill with other martial artists outside competitions gets a similar experience. Bonus if the people they test it with have had to deal with some non-competition attacks (cops, bouncers, someone who grew up in a rough area, etc.).

 

[Steve]

I haven't seen anyone suggest that we all must be cops to learn self-defense. The point made by me and others is that cops' experience is valuable and comparable to civilian self-defense in some cases.

And I still don't believe that an "experienced fighter" must be someone who competes in competitions. Someone who tests their skill with other martial artists outside competitions gets a similar experience. Bonus if the people they test it with have had to deal with some non-competition attacks (cops, bouncers, someone who grew up in a rough area, etc.).

I think there are some people here who believe that the experience of being a cop translates more or less directly to non-Leo self defense. I agree that there is much crossover, but confusing what a cop does and what non-cops need as far as self defense is pretty pointless.

Others have more eloquently made the points better than me. Essentially, combat sports are not self defense, but there is crossover. Being a cop is not self defense. But there is cross over.

As I'm on an iPad, I will try to be brief. if self defense is fundamentally about minimizing risk to one's self, how would the drug addict accomplish this? Stop taking drugs. Overcome the addiction. Easier said than done, for sure, but no other thing will be more effective for that drug addict ballen mentioned.

What's the one thing that a cop could do to minimize their risk for personal injury? Stop being a cop. The function of being a cop creates risk. that risk is professional in nature, just as an infantryman in a combat zone is at risk.

Some of the skills are transferable to a self defense situation. Not all. Some of the tactics are transferable. Not all. But that doesn't make it self defense. Rather, it's knowingly putting oneself at risk for violence while taking every possible means to stack the deck in one's favor. Sounds a lot like a professional combat sports competitor, or fire fighter or anyone else who has a dangerous profession.

And I agree with tgace. I think this highlights the many definitions of self defense people have. I'd go further and say that there are a few here who don't have a consistent definition, and use instead whichever meaning is most advantageous at the time.

 

[drop bear]

I think this thread is a case study of how there is a lack of a universally accepted definition of "self defense".

Yes self defence is a very convenient concept that way.

 

[ballen0351]

I think there are some people here who believe that the experience of being a cop translates more or less directly to non-Leo self defense. I agree that there is much crossover, but confusing what a cop does and what non-cops need as far as self defense is pretty pointless.

No,it doesn't more or less translate directly to anything other then being a cop but it more closely prepares one for the mental and emotional aspects of self defense when compared to playing a sport

Others have more eloquently made the points better than me. Essentially, combat sports are not self defense, but there is crossover. Being a cop is not self defense. But there is cross over.

No job is self-defense. You can't "be" self defense but many jobs require one to defend your life. Which is different than defending your win loss record

As I'm on an iPad, I will try to be brief. if self defense is fundamentally about minimizing risk to one's self, how would the drug addict accomplish this? Stop taking drugs. Overcome the addiction. Easier said than done, for sure, but no other thing will be more effective for that drug addict ballen mentioned.

What's the one thing that a cop could do to minimize their risk for personal injury? Stop being a cop. The function of being a cop creates risk. that risk is professional in nature, just as an infantryman in a combat zone is at risk.

Thats all true but you can never reduce the risk to Zero. So everyone should prepare. Any preparation is better than nothing.

 

[Paul_D]

However, anyone from any career and walk of life can go to a gym a train with experienced fighters and learn how to handle an aggressive attacker. .

It would certainly help you experience and learn to control the adrenalin dump

Although it is worth bearing in mind that criminals are not skilled fighters (they are skilled at criminal violence, not consensual violence), and therefore won't attack you with the same sorts of attacks, or the in the same way.

 

[ballen0351]

I don't know about our views on competitive fighting, we seem to differ. Their are rules but fighters take advantage of those rules and do everything they can to win. A ko can win a fight, fighters try to knock each other out. The ko, the tap, the ippon, are all symbolic of severe injury. A ref stops the fighter from continuing to strike a ko'ed opponent
Some fighters show more respect than others but there are no guarantees. It doesn't really matter though
.

Yes you can be hurt fighting but, in general you don't need to worry about being killed. That's the point I was making. While freak accidents happen your opponent isn't trying to kill you and there and safety measures in place for your benefit.

What do you suggest everyone who is serious about martial arts do?

I dont suggest anything

Become a cop/military/security? I don't think that's a feasable option. Competition is a more feasable option but it's still not something everyone can do. However, anyone from any career and walk of life can go to a gym a train with experienced fighters and learn how to handle an aggressive attacker.

Yes train away thats good.

I would still recommend they also look into or read some material on soft self defense techniques (situational awareness, deescalation, ect) but not everyone can quit what they're doing and change to a career dealing with criminals and street thugs.

I never suggested nor encouraged anyone to change careers. This topic was taken from a different thread and was taken out of context so Steve can play his silly game he likes to do. He picks certain posters depending on the day.takes 1 small part of an entire thread and takes it out of context and makes a new topic to try to play "gotcha" games.

 

[Paul_D]

I think this thread is a case study of how there is a lack of a universally accepted definition of "self defense".

for "this thread" insert "half of this website" lol.

It's the biggest problem when trying to have a discussion about any subject, the subject is never clearly defined, or means different things to different people. To a lot of people on this site self defence means fighting in the street or bars. But if their Grandmother is worried about having her bag snatched would they recommend she go to the local boxing gym to get used to skilled boxers throwing hay makers at her?

Different people will face different types of violence, and so self defence will always be different things to different people.

 

[Steve]

Yes you can be hurt fighting but, in general you don't need to worry about being killed. That's the point I was making. While freak accidents happen your opponent isn't trying to kill you and there and safety measures in place for your benefit.

for most people, that's also true.

I dont suggest anything

Yes train away thats good.

No,it doesn't more or less translate directly to anything other then being a cop but it more closely prepares one for the mental and emotional aspects of self defense when compared to playing a sport

No job is self-defense. You can't "be" self defense but many jobs require one to defend your life. Which is different than defending your win loss record

which for the average person are both different from practical, self defense. How does being a cop help any non-cop defend the,selves? How does a person translate your experience as a cop, wearing cuffs, a gun, a taser, pepper spray, maybe a trained dog and the institutional authority of the city, state or county (and the good or bad that comes from it) into day to day self defense?

Once again. Is there overlap? Sure. Is it self defense? No. It's being a cop. And as you say, being a cop is not self defense..

Thats all true but you can never reduce the risk to Zero. So everyone should prepare. Any preparation is better than nothing.

there are so many better ways to prepare than to go to the police academy and work as a street level narcotics officer.

I never suggested nor encouraged anyone to change careers. This topic was taken from a different thread and was taken out of context so Steve can play his silly game he likes to do.

whoa. Be an adult, and take responsibility for yourself. No one is making you read or respond to anything. In fact, this thread would be a lot more interesting and constructive if you'd do less posting while on duty when you seem to be bored and want to stir the pot for fun. You did recently admit that most of your posts are trolling the people you don't agree with around here. I think you call hanzou the bjj mafia.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

All I can say is the experience cops have from events on the job are in a similiar vein to the experience competitive fighters have. It's something you have to experience yourself and it can't be passed on. A cop can teach someone what to watch out for, but until you've had a weapon pulled on you or a guy flip out on you out of know where you haven't had the experience to deal with that.

True, but they can simulate the attack better than those who haven't been there, to give a better idea of the situation. And they can also relate that experience to others, tell what worked and what didn't. We can't replicate the experience, but we can still learn from it without being in it.

Same for a fighter, you can teach someone to fight but until they've been in competition they're not an experienced fighter.

I think there's room here for debate. Other than the spectators, what's deeply different between competition and intense sparring? You can use the same rules if you like (or not, if you like), set up much of the same environment if you like (or not, if you like). The only difference is likely to be the adrenaline rush of being watched, and there are ways to force adrenaline spikes in a dojo. It's a different (and probably usefully more stressful) experience, but competition is not the only valuable fighting practice.

 

[ballen0351]

which for the average person are both different from practical, self defense. How does being a cop help any non-cop defend the,selves?

I never said it did

How does a person translate your experience as a cop, wearing cuffs, a gun, a taser, pepper spray, maybe a trained dog and the institutional authority of the city, state or county (and the good or bad that comes from it) into day to day self defense?

Well they can start by not trying to play "gotcha" and read what I actually post not argue things I didnt say. But thats what you do very often so...

Once again. Is there overlap? Sure. Is it self defense? No. It's being a cop. And as you say, being a cop is not self defense..

No being a cop isnt self defense its a job. You cant BE self defense, Self defense is a action you do self defense you dont become self defense. So I cant be self defense but I do defend myself all the time.

there are so many better ways to prepare than to go to the police academy and work as a street level narcotics officer.

I agree and never said anything to the contrary so once again your making up an argument I didnt make but thats you so...

whoa. Be an adult, and take responsibility for yourself. No one is making you read or respond to anything

Your getting kind of emotional Steve you might need to step away from the keyboard for a bit

. In fact, this thread would be a lot more interesting and constructive if you'd do less posting while on duty when you seem to be bored and want to stir the pot for fun.

Actually it be more interesting if you would stop making up arguments to points nobody made....But again thats what you do

You did recently admit that most of your posts are trolling the people you don't agree with around here. I think you call hanzou the bjj mafia.

Actually I called you the BJJ mafia also #3 worst I believe and you cried to the Mods. Ill give that to Hanzou at least he doesn't go running to the mods when someone challenges him.

 

[Steve]

Maybe you gust jumped to a conclusion only to find out later in the thread that you actually agree with me. After the emotional issues Get sorted. That's what I see happening.

 

[Brian R. VanCise]

One thing LEO's have going for them by the nature of their profession is an understanding of the law and what self-defense entails in general. They understand first and foremost that it is a legal term. There understanding of the law gives them advantages over other martial practitioner's that do not understand the law and how our legal system works. That and in general they have also been involved in violence and no how deal with adrenaline, hesitation, de-escalation, etc. All of that is pretty important when dealing with a moment of personal protection.

 

[Steve]

One thing LEO's have going for them by the nature of their profession is an understanding of the law and what self-defense entails in general. They understand first and foremost that it is a legal term. There understanding of the law gives them advantages over other martial practitioner's that do not understand the law and how our legal system works. That and in general they have also been involved in violence and no how deal with adrenaline, hesitation, de-escalation, etc. All of that is pretty important when dealing with a moment of personal protection.

Certainly, some LEOs are consistent in this. But there are LEO (well, at least one) who muddies the waters with questions about issues of keeping people safe, or equating the skills, tactics and strategies employed by LEO in the course of their jobs as suitable for non-LEO in their efforts to protect themselves.

My point was never to suggest that cops have nothing to add to a conversation about self defense. My point is that being a cop does not translate directly to non-cop self defense. The two are not the same, in EXACTLY the same way that being a professional MMA fighter does not translate directly to self defense.

We have seen plenty of threads around here where some people suggest that the very best training for self defense is simply to train in MMA. We have a sub group who have argued vehemently that MMA is not self defense. That the skills don't translate directly to self defense. I happen to agree.

But these same people don't apply their own rationale to what they do. But I believe that it is.

More is better, and there's a lot of overlap. But being a cop isn't a reasonable self defense course to suggest to an average person, and further, working as a cop doesn't translate to being safe as a non-cop or even being safe while off duty.

Quick example: a cop while acting as a cop has a badge, a gun, a Taser, passive restraints, a radio and possibly other cops on site. An off duty cop while acting as a drunk is just a drunk, and is as susceptible to being mugged as anyone else.

 

[Buka]

Crazy thread, this. Calls for a group blue hug.