Insights into Kenpo and Groundfighting

[twinkletoes]

Now I'm really interested in this process. Not to take the conversation away from Groundfighting, but when you spar with the kenpo/shootfighting, how "kenpo" is the standup? For example, do you use blocks like kenpo, or boxing style covers? And what kind of rules are employed?

~TT

 

[chaosomega]

I'd also like to know if Kenpo has any good takedowns in and of itself (not taken from wrestling or other sources)....

 

[Zoran]

Originally posted by superdave
Not only that, if you don't go looking for trouble, you shouldn't have to worry about fighting anyway. The odds of getting into a fight without someone running their mouth, acting stupid because they are drunk, or because someone bruised their fragile little ego are pretty slim.

Unless you have a job that includes dealing with those kinds of situations.

The only input I would make is that we should train in all ranges of combat. That includes being on the ground if it happens. To the comment earlier that the chance of fighting a trained grappler is slim. So is fighting someone with a gun pointed at your head. We still train for that.

:asian:

 

[twinkletoes]

Originally posted by chaosomega
I'd also like to know if Kenpo has any good takedowns in and of itself (not taken from wrestling or other sources)....

This is one I can answer (at least for our curriculum):

4 foot sweeps
1 leg sweep (judo's o soto gari)
2 hip throws
2 shoulder throws (one back to back, one back to front)

Add to that a couple of wristlock takedowns, and that is our throwing/takedown component (for our system, at least).

~TT

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Don't forget the funky single-leg take down from Dance of Death!

 

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka

...it behooves Kenpoists to learn basic grappling positions and escapes so that the Kenpoist can regain the stand-up, regain the top, or at least gain enough space from which to strike effectively.

I was observing my sons the other day with their kenpo class. They are purple and blue belts. They've been doing some groundwork techniques (so-called badger moves). They've been doing this since yellow belt level.

I haven't seen any yet in my adult kenpo class (currently purple belt--my third try to that level after a long "vacation").

I asked my instructor about this difference between the jr and adult classes and wondered what he thought of cross-training.

This is basically what he said:

Kenpo does a lot of upright striking techniques as the basis. It is not until around brown/black belt level that groundwork is introduced and is part of the belt requirements.

Judo, is pretty much similar but in reverse. A lot of groundwork and grappling as the basis. By higher level belts, they introduce more striking.

He didn't discourage cross-training. Basically, he seemed to imply that groundwork will come with kenpo--there is no hurry. He did point out Ed Parker has trained with other styles as well to round out his knowledge and instruction.

I don't know enough about Judo to comment, but does Kenpo then focus on more groundwork when moving up the ranks?

- Ceicei

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Zoran
[ To the comment earlier that the chance of fighting a trained grappler is slim. So is fighting someone with a gun pointed at your head. We still train for that.

:asian: [/B]

Good Point!!

Mike

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Ceicei:

No. Kenpo does not focus more on groundfighting as you go up the ranks. And that is why us groundfighting advocates have been ghettoed in this thread.

And, no there are no secret Judo strikes reserved for later in training.

 

[MJS]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Ceicei:

No. Kenpo does not focus more on groundfighting as you go up the ranks. And that is why us groundfighting advocates have been ghettoed in this thread.

And, no there are no secret Judo strikes reserved for later in training.

Right On!!! As usual OFK, I agree!!!

Mike

 

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by Old Fat Kenpoka
Ceicei:

No. Kenpo does not focus more on groundfighting as you go up the ranks. And that is why us groundfighting advocates have been ghettoed in this thread.

And, no there are no secret Judo strikes reserved for later in training.

I won't argue with you there as you understand your system.

What I do see from my sons in their Jr. Kenpo classes they are taught techniques how to deal on the ground with an attacker sitting on them doing a chokehold, lapelhold(s), headhold, head punches, and leaning over with hands on ground next to the head. There are some with arm/wrist locks too and how to get out of them.

These techniques follow the kenpo approach of having certain strikes/parries as well as a few grappling moves. They have names that are given for moves corresponding to physical anatomy in similar format as standing techniques do.

My instructor says that these techniques will be taught to the higher level adults. Our brown/black belts do know them.

If, from what you say, Kenpo does not have these in as part of the standard curriculum, then it looks like my instructor probably added a few of his own in to make his instruction more rounded.

I do know that most of our BB instructors at the school have training in other styles; some have BB in these styles too. Between all of these instructors, I believe the following styles are represented: Judo, Aikido, Tae Kwon Do, Hapkido, and Kwon Shu.

Utah does have the unenviable label of being among some states with high sexual assault/rape statistics.

- Ceicei

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Ceicei: Good news! Sounds like you are at a progressive school. Standard EPAK Kenpo curriculum does not include these techniques you've described. I'm glad your school has picked them up.

 

[twinkletoes]

Above the rank of shodan, judo schools often teach striking, but alas, they only do it in kata form. They do not teach striking in any kind of live, randori-like format, which is exactly the training that makes Judo effective.

The irony is thick.

~TT

 

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
Above the rank of shodan, judo schools often teach striking, but alas, they only do it in kata form. They do not teach striking in any kind of live, randori-like format, which is exactly the training that makes Judo effective.

The irony is thick.

~TT

So my instructor was correct - there is some striking in high level Judo.

How come Judo doesn't incorporate strikes with randori? Is this for the sake of tradition?

 

[Ceicei]

I watched tonight a play match between a Kenpo yellow belt who was a high school/college wrestler with one of our black belt instructors (he has a BB in both Judo and Kenpo). Our black belt used his Judo for this match.

Unfortunately, he lost the match.

Apparently wrestling has several good grappling moves that made it difficult even with Judo to get out.

Any thoughts?

- Ceicei

 

[pete]

is a technique we learn at green that brings you to the ground. It teaches yielding and adhering using a vertical axis, rather than the more apparent horizontal or diagonal axis found in many more Kenpo Techniques.

Is this technique "standard EPAK"?

 

[twinkletoes]

Ceicei-

Judo's rules were developed by removing jujutsu's "more dangerous techniques" so that it could be practiced "live" regularly. That's why it only includes locks against the elbow and chokes, no strikes, and rules heavily against throwing your opponent (or yourself) headfirst towards the mat. (BJJ and MMA and other grappling styles now add many of these things back in.)

As far as wrestling vs. judo goes, we are leaving the realm of technique and venturing into new waters here.

For starters, wrestling is not nearly so technique-driven as Judo. Instead, it stresses attribute development (speed, strength, explosiveness) in order to overcome the opponent's attributes. Now it does have some good techniques, and the emphasis on technique will vary from wrestler to wrestler, but overall it is far more focused on these physical developments.

You say the judoka "lost the match." What were the conditions? Did he lose via pin?

~TT

 

[satans.barber]

Originally posted by pete
is a technique we learn at green that brings you to the ground. It teaches yielding and adhering using a vertical axis, rather than the more apparent horizontal or diagonal axis found in many more Kenpo Techniques.

Is this technique "standard EPAK"?

We have it, but we're not standard so I don't know!

'yielding in a vertical axis', hmm, when I teach it I say 'you're getting pushed over'! lol!

Ian.

 

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by twinkletoes
Ceicei-

Judo's rules were developed by removing jujutsu's "more dangerous techniques" so that it could be practiced "live" regularly. That's why it only includes locks against the elbow and chokes, no strikes, and rules heavily against throwing your opponent (or yourself) headfirst towards the mat. (BJJ and MMA and other grappling styles now add many of these things back in.)

As far as wrestling vs. judo goes, we are leaving the realm of technique and venturing into new waters here.

For starters, wrestling is not nearly so technique-driven as Judo. Instead, it stresses attribute development (speed, strength, explosiveness) in order to overcome the opponent's attributes. Now it does have some good techniques, and the emphasis on technique will vary from wrestler to wrestler, but overall it is far more focused on these physical developments.

You say the judoka "lost the match." What were the conditions? Did he lose via pin?

~TT

Well, I won't be able to do a play-by-play report of this match. Basically, it started out pretty evenly with arm/leg/wrist locks. After a while, the wrestler then picked the judoka up with a body lift and turned him around onto his back then laid down crosswise over the judoka's body. He sort of rolled up over the chest to force the judoka's shoulders to touch the mat. During this time, the judoka was trying hard to stay on his side instead of his back and attempting an arm lock to twist him off. It was the pin that ended the match.

- Ceicei

 

[twinkletoes]

Ah, that was exactly what i was wondering.

1) It sounds like the wrestler was able to pull it off (especially the lift) mostly due to strength, rather than technique per se.

2) It went to pin. That's what I was really wondering. That's what wrestlers do: they pin. That's how a wrestling match is ended.

Judoka can win by throws, pins, or submissions. It broadens their tactics. BJJ guys usually go to submission. MMA guys usually add strikes to the mix.

The question of style vs. style always comes back to "What rules are we using?"

~TT

 

[Ceicei]

As far as groundfighting goes, what is the difference between pins and submissions?

- Ceicei