Impact adjustments/Bracing angles

[dcence]

This might be a spin-off of the Scraping Hoof thread, but how many of you practice impact adjustments when teaching/working a grab technique. By that I mean, an attacker grabbing you usually hits you with some momentum when he grabs you, and you have to be able to adjust to that in your first move. For example, any of the rear bear-hug type holds. Many of them teach you to step out to a horse stance. If the attacker has any significant momentum forward, which I am sure he will, if you step out to the side, you can end up on your face because of the absence of a bracing angle. Do you practice this way, actually stepping to create a bracing angle to adjust for that momentum? Are there other ways that you account for or adjust to such impact/momentum?

Another example is Raking Mace, where the attacher grabs you from the front and then pulls you back toward them. Well, first the momentum of him stepping toward you and him putting his hands on you (rather forcefully) before pulling back naturally drives you backwards. Do you step back with it to brace against the initial impact of the attack? If you don't are you at a risk of them not pulling in, but rather continuing to drive you back, and if you don't initially step back, you will end up on your back? What else might you do to account for the initial impact toward 6:00 before the pull to 12:00? You don't really know he is going to pull back until he actually starts pulling back, as opposed to keep moving forward.

Let me make a suggestion, practice some of those techniques, and have the attacker be a little more aggressive on the grab actually driving into you a little with his grab. See what adjustments you have to make on where you step first.

 

[kenpo12]

If you've ever had Clyde grab ya for a technique you've trained that way.

 

[Touch Of Death]

The adjustment you wold want to make is to step of the line off momentum so that you end up facing his weakest base of support; so, In the next beat any force you offer, either pulling or pushing, will cause him to have to readjust be it Clyde or not.

 

[dcence]

The adjustment you wold want to make is to step of the line off momentum so that you end up facing his weakest base of support; so, In the next beat any force you offer, either pulling or pushing, will cause him to have to readjust be it Clyde or not.

I certainly agree with stepping of the line of attack (momentum) for a strike, but I am not sure I understand your thought in reference to a grab, which is what I am talking about. If someone grabs you and the force of his grab compels you to move, I think you would actually step directly on the line of attack (momentum) so as to create a bracing angle.

For example, in Crashing Wing, if the attacker has any momentum forward, which he probably will have, then it wouldn't make sense to step of the line of attack out to 3:00, but instead to step forward to go with the momentum and create a structurally sound bracing angle before doing the rest of the technique. Stepping to a horse directly to either side with someone grabbing from behind with significant forward momemtum will cause you to face plant forward.

I just think it is naive to think someone comes up to you, grabs you and just stands there, even if they are holding you for someone. Instead, there is usually force applied in at least one direction, sometimes more.

I consider this a part of the purposeful compliance/defiance concept. If someone grabs you and his force pushes you that way, comply (by stepping that way and create a bracing angle) then defy (by using the bracing angle for the rest of your technique).

We do this for Thrusting Prongs by stepping back in a front bear hug attack, but not with the rear bear hugs? Why not? I can't think off the top of my head of any rear bear hug attacks that have you step forward to account for an attacker's momentum. There's Squeezing in which you step back, but I think it is more likely that the momentum of the attack will drive you forward, not pull you back.

 

[pete]

when the attackers momentum begins to push you over, the force is being applied to your upper body. therefore, you would still establish a sturdy foundation, or become rooted, by dropping your weight into a horse stance. your lower body is not being threatened at this time. You would then yield to the force with your upper body, so if it is enough to put you on your face, your attacker would be thrown off balance... not you. How the force is applied by the attacker may dictate whether to yield by stepping out left or right. our kenpo techniques are geared toward right-handedness, so we learn the attacker facing our back is right handed, exerting force from the right side, thereby we learn to yield by stepping left.

i also agree that although we do train by posing the attacks with different intents and angles, we do far to little of it. one problem i see is we work the techniques most when we are first learning it and must concentrate on a basic attack to understand the movements. by the time we are ready to experiment with these variables, everyone is learning new techniques for their new belt level!

 

[Blindside]

when the attackers momentum begins to push you over, the force is being applied to your upper body. therefore, you would still establish a sturdy foundation, or become rooted, by dropping your weight into a horse stance.

Hi Pete,

Do you mean a horse stance on the 3/9:00 plane or 12/6:00 plane? (Assuming that the attack is coming from 12:00.)

Thanks,

Lamont

 

[FiveSwords]

Originally posted by pete
when the attackers momentum begins to push you over, the force is being applied to your upper body. therefore, you would still establish a sturdy foundation, or become rooted, by dropping your weight into a horse stance. your lower body is not being threatened at this time. You would then yield to the force with your upper body, so if it is enough to put you on your face, your attacker would be thrown off balance... not you.

I have to disagree.

Assuming you're facing 12 and the attacker approaches from 6, this would put the force vector from 6 to 12. Going to a horse on the 3-9 line provides no additional support against a force on the 12-6 line.

It's the same concept as trying to block a vertical strike with a vertical block or a horizontal strike with a horizontal block. If the force of the strike is coming up (6 to 12), to block it you must counter it with a force in the opposite direction (12 to 6). Applying a 3 to 9 force against a 6 to 12 attack will only slightly alter the direction of the attack, not nullify it.

Thusly, with enough force, you go sprawling onto your face, which is not my idea of a good time.

Just my $.02. :asian:

 

[pete]

3/9:00 if possible.

if the attackers force is sudden and you are physically moved to the 12/6:00 position, so be it... the attacker will now be at 3 or 9, so its really the same thing. if the attacker is still exerting force on your upper body, yielding to the force by stepping out with the leg opposite the predominant side of the force, relaxing the back and shoulders, and rotating the hips slightly in the direction of the force will cause him to be uprooted and puts yoruself in position to execute rest the technique.

you just don't want to "carry" the attacker into a position for the sake of being there.

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

3/9:00 if possible.

if the attackers force is sudden and you are physically moved to the 12/6:00 position, so be it... the attacker will now be at 3 or 9, so its really the same thing. if the attacker is still exerting force on your upper body, yielding to the force by stepping out with the leg opposite the predominant side of the force, relaxing the back and shoulders, and rotating the hips slightly in the direction of the force will cause him to be uprooted and puts yoruself in position to execute rest the technique.

you just don't want to "carry" the attacker into a position for the sake of being there.

I totally disagree. Maybe it's just that I'm not understanding what it is that you are describing. I'm about 5'9" 175 lbs and I get thrown forward when someone smaller than me does this grab. If I don't step forward with the momentum then I will end up unconcious on the ground (on my face), or find myself groundfighting with an opponent who already has my back (a very bad situation to be in).

If you don't believe me, have someone stand behind you and push you forward right below your scapulas. Make sure they don't tell you before each push, but just in a random manner have them push you. See if you can step into your horse stance then, or if you find yourself stepping forward to compensate.
Next play with a forceful grab. You don't have to do the technique just the step, if what you say is true then you should be fine.

 

[pete]

countering the force of the attacker with a force from the opposite direction pits force against force, where the physically stronger will win. I prefer to stack the odds a bit more in my favor!

with enough sudden force from the rear, like a linebacker is tackle you by surprised, you are likely to go sprawling on you face regardless, and that leads to ground fighting, and i ain't going there!

we're talking here about a rear bear hug where force being is applied to push you forward.

let me be clear, i'm not saying your "wrong", cause if your built like a tree trunk and have the fortune of a smaller weaker attacker, you can brace, resist, and win.

 

[dcence]

when the attackers momentum begins to push you over, the force is being applied to your upper body. therefore, you would still establish a sturdy foundation, or become rooted, by dropping your weight into a horse stance. your lower body is not being threatened at this time.

I would tend to somewhat disagree as the upper body is connected to the lower body, and force to the upper will disturb the lower.

To me it about establishing a foundation in the right place at the right time. Stepping to 3:00 or 9:00 with force being applied from 6:00 line seems shaky.

I don't think the answer is in stepping all the way to 12:00 (assuming force from 6:00), but I like to step to the diagonal (say 10:30) to cause an angle of disturbance. Instead of force hitting a brick wall (by stepping to 12:00), it is more like glancing off a guardrail, where you don't take the full impact of the force. Try stepping to the diagonal with any of your rear bear hug attacks (with the attacker actually applying forward force). I like the way the angle disturbs the attacker without you having to absorb 100% of the momentum.

i also agree that although we do train by posing the attacks with different intents and angles, we do far to little of it. one problem i see is we work the techniques most when we are first learning it and must concentrate on a basic attack to understand the movements. by the time we are ready to experiment with these variables, everyone is learning new techniques for their new belt level!

This, Pete, I agree wholeheartedly with. At one point, I was more interested in learning the next technique before really thinking about the one I just learned. That is natural I think at an early level. Some never get out of that mode though. My instructor calls these people "collectors", who want to collect and archive all kinds of moves and techniques and forms for the sake of the collection, not the knowledge they contain.

Just thoughts that I appreciate bouncing off others.

Thanks for helping

 

[pete]

good dialogue! we both agree to yield rather than resist.

my example is based on the premise of a predominant side, usually learned as coming from the right side of the attacker, appying force with a rear bear hug. if the force is weighted towards the right side, then by stepping to 3:00, dropping your weight, and yielding the upper body with the attack force (from a slight hip rotation), the attackers own force will cause him to be uprooted, allowing you to execute the technique.

this is where we disagree; that the upper body can yield while the lower body remains rooted. fair enough! i make the visual comparison to a tree, where the roots go deep and remain stationary while the branches and leaves yield to the forces of nature.

by the way... i like the term "collector"

 

[KenpoTess]

reviving for the newer members.

 

[MJS]

Another technique where its important to apply the adjustments/angles would be Striking Serpents Head. The idea of a bearhug is not just for control, but to pick you up and/or throw you. Stepping back is going to buy some time to apply your follow up strikes. In addition, its important to keep space between your hips and theirs. Placing your hands on their hips will also buy you some time.

Mike

 

[Seabrook]

Another technique where its important to apply the adjustments/angles would be Striking Serpents Head. The idea of a bearhug is not just for control, but to pick you up and/or throw you. Stepping back is going to buy some time to apply your follow up strikes. In addition, its important to keep space between your hips and theirs. Placing your hands on their hips will also buy you some time.

Mike

The importance of the neutral bow as we step back in this technique is also critical for stability and balance.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[kenposikh]

The importance of the neutral bow as we step back in this technique is also critical for stability and balance.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

Are you sre that a forward bow would not provide a better brace and prevent you from going back further? Just a question

 

[Jagdish]

Are you sure that a forward bow would not provide a better brace and prevent you from going back further? Just a question

With a F/B you are anchoring your self. Don't you think so?:uhyeah:

Yours,

Jagdish

 

[kenposikh]

Hi Jagdish,

I don't understand what you are trying to get at here please explain further.

Amrik

 

[Seabrook]

Are you sre that a forward bow would not provide a better brace and prevent you from going back further? Just a question

You will end up in section k, row 118, if you use a forward bow. There is a reason why it has to be a neutral in Striking Serpent's Head, and a forward bow in Thrusting Prongs. It has to do with the catalyst.

Clyde O'Briant covered this topic remarkably well at his seminars in PA a few weeks ago.


Jamie Seabrook
www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

 

[Jagdish]

Hi Jagdish,

I don't understand what you are trying to get at here please explain further.

Amrik

Amrik:

Sorry, for my partial answer.

The F/B is better used when someone is pulling us from the front while the neutral is better when someone pulls us from the the back shoulder but we are also facing him. I haven't mentioned any particular technique.

Now, in a different case:In trusting prongs i use F/B because you anchor
yourself so you are more difficult to move.Getting back into a F/B is difficult but it teach you to root. I do it like i am dropping so it's looks like i am slipping back but in reality i'm not.

Re:Using the N/B depends on the your N/B. there many ways of doing it.

What do you think,Amrik?

Yours,

Jagdish