If you learn a system from someone, can they keep you from teaching it to others?

[Gerry Seymour]

I’m impressed with all the great feedback that has been given so quickly. Let me clarify on some of the parts per request.

He, my son, has no interest in copying the name of the school. It’s not that cool to worry about.

He has no interest in copying any designs or logos. My son is an artist and can make his own.

I don’t see how the instructor can hold any claim to the material for the following reasons. My son started at school A. An instructor who taught at school A was fired to the point the main instructor removed all evidence of the instructor working there before. My son decided to go with the fired instructor feeling he was the better teacher. The fired instructor taught the same forms and style as he had learned from School A. School A never came after the instructor for teaching the material. The whole system is from a questionable and / or confusing lineage. It is a hodgepodge of different styles of Kung Fu. Many of the forms can be found being performed by other people not related to the school on YouTube.

If we ever signed a non-compted clause it was very short and made by the instructor not some iron clad type of document. Yet again, since it wasn’t his in the first place, can he really do that?

The instructor felt fine letting me son teach time and time again with him showing up. It was getting to the point where my son was teaching way more than he was.

Also, my son probably will not consider teaching in a business type setting until he finishes school and gets settled. So, potentially, he has 4 more years of studying other martial arts. Can’t he just teach his own style at some point and use a little from each. We already know the instructor wasn’t using his own made of forms.

If it's not an original art (and not something owned by that instructor), I don't see where he has any leverage except any possible contracts signed. As someone else noted, if your son was underage when the contract was signed, in most places it's not valid.

 

[Flying Crane]

Sure, he can probably teach whatever he wants and the instructor cannot stop him, as long as he isn't pilfering copywrited logos and names.

There are problems that can go along with doing so, however, so be aware.

The biggest one in my book is that those who have been around the block a few times, and are better than average at sniffing out quality over crap, tend to look suspiciously at people who make up their own system, especially a hodge-podge of things from various non-related systems. Sounds like this is what your son has learned, and if he splinters away and slaps a new name on it to make it his own, especially at a young age and fairly short time training, that may raise some credibility issues. People may be wary of training with him, and may not give him a fair chance to see if he is actually good or not, and that could harm his reputation in the area.

If he is just teaching a couple friends in the back yard, then it really doesn't matter.

 

[bluedragon1]

Yes, the teacher who was fired is the one claiming he can't teach it.

He is currently 17 and trained for 7 years. If we signed, it was a few years ago.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Yes, the teacher who was fired is the one claiming he can't teach it.

He is currently 17 and trained for 7 years. If we signed, it was a few years ago.

In that case I definitely wouldn't worry about it. If your son signed anything he would have been a minor and the contract wouldn't be binding. If you signed, your agreement is not binding on your son.

In any case, if he actually had a non-compete agreement that you had signed, then he probably would have produced it or made reference to it by now. Until and unless he produces documentation and makes specific legal threats, I would ignore him.

Flying Crane does make a good point regarding credentials if your son does decide to reach commercially at some point down the line. Belt ranks, teaching licenses, etc are part of how credibility is recognized in the martial arts world. They are documentation that instructor Soandso is willing to publicly state that the person being ranked has learned the art in question to a certain level or is qualified to teach the art. In this case, it sounds like the instructor won't vouch for your son's qualifications and the instructor's instructor won't vouch for his qualifications. Fortunately your son has plenty of time to continue his training and possibly earn teaching credentials under another instructor before he would be in a situation where he should be thinking about opening any sort of commercial business teaching martial arts.

 

[bluedragon1]

My son will be attending college her for 2 years, then attending a college a few hours away for two years and then he'll be gone to who knows where. He is determined for it not to be here. He's training during those 7 years was quite intensive; 4 to 6 days a week with many classes lasting over 2 hours and a ton of private lessons. It's sad to think my son will have to wait till he's out of college and train with someone another 7 years to earn legitimacy.

 

[jks9199]

A thought... There is a major difference between teaching under even minimal supervision, and teaching on one's own. Perhaps the original poster's son's teacher simply feels he lacks adequate understanding of the style to teach on his own, without periodically correcting or tweaking what he teaches.

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[bluedragon1]

A thought... There is a major difference between teaching under even minimal supervision, and teaching on one's own. Perhaps the original poster's son's teacher simply feels he lacks adequate understanding of the style to teach on his own, without periodically correcting or tweaking what he teaches.

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That makes a lot of sense to me. However, the instructor would be absent from the entire class more than he was there. If he felt my son couldn't teach without minimal supervision, then he probably should have been there.

 

[Tony Dismukes]

A thought... There is a major difference between teaching under even minimal supervision, and teaching on one's own. Perhaps the original poster's son's teacher simply feels he lacks adequate understanding of the style to teach on his own, without periodically correcting or tweaking what he teaches.

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Quite possible. However there is a difference between saying "I don't feel you're qualified to teach on your own and I don't think you should do it" and saying "Even though you are no longer my student and I have no authority over you I am forbidding you from teaching on your own."

 

[Tony Dismukes]

That makes a lot of sense to me. However, the instructor would be absent from the entire class more than he was there. If he felt my son couldn't teach without minimal supervision, then he probably should have been there.

So he got fired from his old school, starts his own (commercial, I assume?) business teaching and then lets a minor do his teaching on a regular basis rather than showing up and running class himself? And then tries to tell that minor what he can and can't do once he's no longer a student? I'm starting to get the feeling this instructor may be a bit of a sketchy character.

 

[bluedragon1]

To his credit he really was good for 3 or 4 years. It was the last year where things went down hill.

 

[Juany118]

It depends on the jurisdiction and the details of the contract whether that non-compete clause will hold up in court. You're in Pennsylvania, so non-compete clauses are allowable (unlike in California) as long as they are "reasonable" in terms of time, geographic area, legitimate interests of the company, and benefit/consideration provided to the bound party in exchange for being bound by the non-compete clause.

I'm not a lawyer, so nothing I say should be construed as legal advice. A Pennsylvania lawyer specializing in that sort of contract law would know what a court is likely to consider "reasonable" in those 4 factors. I'd guess that the unlimited geographical area is almost certainly not enforceable. The other three factors would require an expert to offer opinions on. Personally I wonder about the final factor - consideration provided. Most non-competes come up in the context of employment where the employee is being paid by the employer wanting the non-compete clause, not in the context of a school where the student is the one paying the person wanting the non-compete. I haven't been able to find any cases where such a clause was actually litigated in the context of a martial arts school, so it might be one of those things where no one would know for sure until it actually went to court.

(On another note, the OP is asking for his son. If the son was under legal age at the point where he started training, then he wouldn't have been able to legally sign and be bound by such a contract if there was one.)

Agreed on the lack of litigation bit. It's even more interesting with my school because it's run as a not for profit. All of the monies paid either go to the maintenance of the school or to charitable donations (Filipino-American Association, Wounded Warrior project and LEO Charitable organizations) so it can be argued we don't pay our Sifu-Mataw Guro either.

I didn't know about that difference with California Law, thanks for that insight.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

Quite possible. However there is a difference between saying "I don't feel you're qualified to teach on your own and I don't think you should do it" and saying "Even though you are no longer my student and I have no authority over you I am forbidding you from teaching on your own."

There is also the possibility of a 17 year old being told "don't teach while you're away at college", and interpreting it as either "you're not quite qualified yet to teach on your own, I recommend you wait a bit for that", or "I forbid you from doing this otherwise you shall being dishonor to your family!", or anywhere between.

Not knowing the specific people involved, I would bet the first interpretation is closer than the second.

 

[Buka]

Bluedragon1, do you train as well?

 

[drop bear]

My son will be attending college her for 2 years, then attending a college a few hours away for two years and then he'll be gone to who knows where. He is determined for it not to be here. He's training during those 7 years was quite intensive; 4 to 6 days a week with many classes lasting over 2 hours and a ton of private lessons. It's sad to think my son will have to wait till he's out of college and train with someone another 7 years to earn legitimacy.

Yeah. but was that guy any good? What legitimacy does he have at the moment?

 

[bluedragon1]

There is also the possibility of a 17 year old being told "don't teach while you're away at college", and interpreting it as either "you're not quite qualified yet to teach on your own, I recommend you wait a bit for that", or "I forbid you from doing this otherwise you shall being dishonor to your family!", or anywhere between.

Not knowing the specific people involved, I would bet the first interpretation is closer than the second.

We would not dispute he needs to wait. Every though he has been requested by some of his former classmates to teach at another location, he hasn't. The instructors point of view is he can never teach it. In addition, the instructor has broken off communications with us. I would think since we were the first students to leave with him, stay way longer than anyone else had, follow him to 4 different locations as he moved his business, stay for 3 or 4 years, show up every session like clock work, promote his business, take care of his website and be on call on a moment's notice when he needed something martial arts related that he wouldn't be so bent out of shape about my son going to train somewhere else.

Bluedragon1, do you train as well?

I've trained very little in the past. Does this mean I should not be here? I've worked very closely with my son martial arts path from the very beginning. For the first 4 years, I was at almost everyone of his training classes.

Yeah. but was that guy any good? What legitimacy does he have at the moment?

He doesn't have any legitimacy from the school he left. Since he was fired. He did get inducted into a state based martial arts organization that is expanding their organization and bringing in other styles. He was granted a 1st Dan status from that group. The same group helped him get inducted into a martial arts hall of fame thing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I've trained very little in the past. Does this mean I should not be here? I've worked very closely with my son martial arts path from the very beginning. For the first 4 years, I was at almost everyone of his training classes.

Oh, I don't think anyone was suggesting you shouldn't be here. They were probably looking for some context for any recommendations. For instance, it would be a somewhat different picture if you also had trained a few years at the same place.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

We would not dispute he needs to wait. Every though he has been requested by some of his former classmates to teach at another location, he hasn't. The instructors point of view is he can never teach it. In addition, the instructor has broken off communications with us. I would think since we were the first students to leave with him, stay way longer than anyone else had, follow him to 4 different locations as he moved his business, stay for 3 or 4 years, show up every session like clock work, promote his business, take care of his website and be on call on a moment's notice when he needed something martial arts related that he wouldn't be so bent out of shape about my son going to train somewhere else.

There's a pattern here. I'm going to suggest that something about this character trait is what led to his dismissal from the previous school. There are people who seem to be the right people to follow, but who prove to have character flaws that make them unattractive in the long run. I've run into a couple of those over the years, and this getting bent out of shape over someone wanting other training...

He doesn't have any legitimacy from the school he left. Since he was fired. He did get inducted into a state based martial arts organization that is expanding their organization and bringing in other styles. He was granted a 1st Dan status from that group. The same group helped him get inducted into a martial arts hall of fame thing.

That MA Hall of Fame is crap, IMO. It's very easy to get into, and is all about marketing. It's a shill to deceive prospective students into thinking the instructor is some famous martial artist, but pretty near anyone can get in. Any organization that makes significant use of that is suspect, IMO. (I've met some individual instructors who used it, and I have a problem with it, but I understand sometimes you just use the tools that are available. If you are a better instructor, but the other guy has a HoF plaque, he might get the students you could be serving.)

 

[bluedragon1]

Oh, I don't think anyone was suggesting you shouldn't be here. They were probably looking for some context for any recommendations. For instance, it would be a somewhat different picture if you also had trained a few years at the same place.

I didn't think you were, just checking.

There's a pattern here. I'm going to suggest that something about this character trait is what led to his dismissal from the previous school. There are people who seem to be the right people to follow, but who prove to have character flaws that make them unattractive in the long run. I've run into a couple of those over the years, and this getting bent out of shape over someone wanting other training...


That MA Hall of Fame is crap, IMO. It's very easy to get into, and is all about marketing. It's a shill to deceive prospective students into thinking the instructor is some famous martial artist, but pretty near anyone can get in. Any organization that makes significant use of that is suspect, IMO. (I've met some individual instructors who used it, and I have a problem with it, but I understand sometimes you just use the tools that are available. If you are a better instructor, but the other guy has a HoF plaque, he might get the students you could be serving.)

I think you're right.

 

[hoshin1600]

i hate to say this but from all the information you have posted i would tell my son to leave all parties involved and join another school / system that is a well recognized style that is fully accredited with a legit organization. the way this sounds your son may very well be wasting all his time in a school that is not worth the effort.

 

[geezer]

Hmmm... what is your son's motivation here? Does he intend to start a commercial school at some point? ..or just train a few friends? I know I'd recommend a different career for my son (who is just 18).

I mean really, teaching martial arts for a living is a tough job. You need skills as a businessman, people skills, teaching skills, and even legit martial arts skills, plus experience (which a seventeen-year old doesn't have).

Now teaching a few friends or running a small college club is much more doable. I did that back in school and it kept me from having to wait tables to have pizza and beer money. It also helped me progress with my own training ...as a hobby.