I really enjoyed this Wing Chun teacher

[Cephalopod]

I actually really liked the OP's video. A rarity for me as I grow older and more crotchety.
The bit about when you push in this relaxed state, you're using your whole body as one...cool visualization.

Taken too far, I fear that "magical thinking" can lead you off into the land of "Yellow Bamboo".

I had to look that up... I just kept thinking about Frank Zappa and his huskies. The reality was even less palatable. Thanks for making me even more crotchety, Geezer....

In truth I don't think John was treading into those rancid waters. We all know that muscle engagement is complex concept for beginners and if using terms like "internal" and "forward gravity" helps him get these ideas across, more power to him. Of course, there will always be the occasional student who gets a little too enamored by that seductive 'chi' idea and then it's up to John to make sure he comes back to Earth.

As to whether his relaxed state will hold up to a genuine onslaught of power, I'll hold my tongue until I feel his hands myself. But I'll assume that his 'relaxed' is not the same as limp and his structure can absorb deflect and bypass power to the side.

I think about other sporting activities and I see that accomplished players all do what they do with a relaxed softness that beginners and hacks don't have. Think moguls skiing, ball handling in basketball, swimming, hitting a perfect golf shot, playing an instrument really well, etc. I don't think it's mystical, I just think that maybe sometimes we try to describe and/or teach it in ways that make it sound that way. Good grapplers, in my experience, have terrific relaxation qualities, which make them heavy and hard to deal with, while conserving their energy. I've never heard NCAA wrestlers or BJJ players described as mystical.

Very well said!
And all these athletes manage to get to the peak of their form without ever learning to channel chi, but just by training well and hard.
Not that I'm opposed to the concept of chi, I just think it's something for experienced masters to discuss between themselves; those who understand that what they are feeling on the inside is a consequence of dedicated training not some mystical quality that can be marketed to unsuspecting minds.

Crotchety out!

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What we can do is to learn to perfect our movements so we are not using brute strength, or involving unnecessary muscles in a movement.
Take a tan sau as an example. The arm will not raise without some involvement from the deltoid, or bend without some involvement from the biceps. But most of the focus should be on the triceps, lats, Serratus anterior, etc, or what we commonly refer to in wing Chun as elbow force. So the muscles we don't want to use, while still involved, are relaxed, relative to the muscles we want to use.
But even If we are using the proper muscles we don't want to try to use brute force, we want to conserve energy and use just enough to get the job done .
Another of my teacher's favorite sayings is the goal of the WT man is to get better and better at using less and less

IMO, this should be the goal of any martial artist, regardless of style.

 

[PiedmontChun]

My si-bak (who had trained under one of LT's students and occasionally under LT) used to tell me "We work so hard to move so little". I interpreted that as acknowledgement that it takes a lot of effort over time to develop quick efficient movement, wasting no energy, but that is the end goal.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

we commonly refer to in wing Chun as elbow force.

What's the difference between "elbow force" and "whole body unification force"? Can you generate maximum force by using arm (elbow) only?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

What's the difference between "elbow force" and "whole body unification force"? Can you generate maximum force by using arm (elbow) only?

I think the term “elbow power” is a bit of a misnomer. Based on my (limited) WT experience, I’d say the primary driver of “elbow power” is actually the muscles of the back, not the triceps or deltoid. The power in WT/WC punches comes from the back (“elbow power”) and from advancing footwork which puts the body weight behind the structure of the punch. I won’t say they’re as powerful as good boxing punches, but properly done they’re not just arm punches.

 

[Buka]

I think the term “elbow power” is a bit of a misnomer. Based on my (limited) WT experience, I’d say the primary driver of “elbow power” is actually the muscles of the back, not the triceps or deltoid. The power in WT/WC punches comes from the back (“elbow power”) and from advancing footwork which puts the body weight behind the structure of the punch. I won’t say they’re as powerful as good boxing punches, but properly done they’re not just arm punches.

I couldn't agree more. There's a lot of different ways to punch, and if done properly, they ALL hurt, they can all damage.

It's why I believe people should explore every avenue of training available to them. If your buddy does a different style and you happen to work together, spend less time going back and forth with "we do it this way, ya, but we do it THIS way" and spend more time picking your buddy's brain and have him show you everything he does, everything he has learned. He'll be thrilled to do so anyway, people love to show their friends what they've learned in the Arts. Take full advantage.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"we do it this way, ya, but we do it THIS way"

All power come from bottom and up, back and front. The more that you can rotate your body, the more power that you can generate.

When I see the "horse stance middle punch" (which is similar to the WC punch), I always like to ask the following questions:

- Is that the maximum amount of power that you can generate?
- How much power that come from your leg?
- Why do you train power generation without moving your feet?
- Why do you train power generation without rotating your body?
- Why don't you line up your leading arm, body, back shoulder as a straight line?
- ...

How about this power generation with forward step and body rotation? Is it just style difference, or is it because one style know how to use the whole body but the other style doesn't?

 

[Jens]

What's the difference between "elbow force" and "whole body unification force"? Can you generate maximum force by using arm (elbow) only?

"Elbow force" is "whole body unification force"! When I apply elbow force, it automatically engages my whole body structural linkage to the ground including that of my hips and legs.

 

[vince1]

I have been hit by Tai Chi striking as well as Tae Kwon Do and Karate practioners/strikes. By far the most impact I felt was from a Tai Chi practioner.