How the punch can relate to the rest of the system

[Kung Fu Wang]

Where's the paradox?

A: My spear can penetrate all shields on earth.
B: My shield can stop all spears on earth.

What will happen when A's spear meets B's shield?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think he may be referring to the dynamic of a WC cat knows how to fight another WC cat very well BUT how well does the WC cat know how to fight an Aikido, or really any other breed of cat?

I just didn't see a paradox in it.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

A: My spear can penetrate all shields on earth.
B: My shield can stop all spears on earth.

What will happen when A's spear meets B's shield?

Ah. That's a different scenario. Of course, no MA has either the impenetrable defense nor the irresistible offense.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I just didn't see a paradox in it.

APL76 said:

if you encounter someone who really knows how to deploy wing chun to its fullest extent combining the handling of force with sticky hands and sticky legs you can hardly even stand up much less fight back, they will take control of your balance, if they want you to cross your legs you will, or you will simply go over.

Before I cross trained the

- preying mantis system, I was told that after I had trained it, my hands could move so fast that my opponent won't be able to see it.
- Baji system, I was told that after I had trained it, my punch could be so strong that I can punch a hole through my opponent's chest.
- Zimen system, I was told that after I had trained it, my finger tip could be so strong that whenever I touch my opponent's pressure point, my opponent could drop to death.
- Taiji system, I was told that after I had trained it, nobody can even land a drop of water on my body.
- XingYi system, I was told that after I had trained it, the moment that I punch, the moment that my opponent's body will fly into the sky.
- ...

After I have spent so many years in my cross training systems, my faith was not the same any more. In MA. everything is relative and not absolute. Nobody can say, "When I touch you, you will be dead." It all depends on how "bad" that your opponent's MA training can be.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

APL76 said:



Before I cross trained the

- preying mantis system, I was told that after I had trained it, my hands could move so fast that my opponent won't be able to see it.
- Baji system, I was told that after I had trained it, my punch could be so strong that I can punch a hole through my opponent's chest.
- Zimen system, I was told that after I had trained it, my finger tip could be so strong that whenever I touch my opponent's pressure point, my opponent could drop to death.
- Taiji system, I was told that after I had trained it, nobody can even land a drop of water on my body.
- XingYi system, I was told that after I had trained it, the moment that I punch, the moment that my opponent's body will fly into the sky.
- ...

After I have spent so many years in my cross training systems, my faith was not the same any more. In MA. everything is relative and not absolute. Nobody can say, "When I touch you, you will be dead." It all depends on how "bad" that your opponent's MA training can be.

That is the reality. CMA systems are not the only ones to make hyperbolic claims, and none of those claims has yet been substantiated for any system.

 

[Danny T]

Your opponent steps to your right side, you turn to your right and "change direction". He steps to your right side again, you change your direction again. If you keep doing that, your opponent may walk in a complete circle and you may have to turn 360 degree.

When will you stop "change direction" if your opponent keeps stepping to your right?

Depending on the situation..."If" I am going to continue the engagement I cut him off. I don't circle with him.
Otherwise I'm creating distance.

 

[APL76]

APL76 said:



Before I cross trained the

- preying mantis system, I was told that after I had trained it, my hands could move so fast that my opponent won't be able to see it.
- Baji system, I was told that after I had trained it, my punch could be so strong that I can punch a hole through my opponent's chest.
- Zimen system, I was told that after I had trained it, my finger tip could be so strong that whenever I touch my opponent's pressure point, my opponent could drop to death.
- Taiji system, I was told that after I had trained it, nobody can even land a drop of water on my body.
- XingYi system, I was told that after I had trained it, the moment that I punch, the moment that my opponent's body will fly into the sky.
- ...

After I have spent so many years in my cross training systems, my faith was not the same any more. In MA. everything is relative and not absolute. Nobody can say, "When I touch you, you will be dead." It all depends on how "bad" that your opponent's MA training can be.

There are a number of things to take into consideration.
Firstly, I'm not saying that if anyone who is good at wing chun takes on anyone else the wing chun guy will win. And I'm not assuming that any other martial art can be broken down by wing chun all the time, or that any other martial art cant break down wing chun. So if you are getting the impression I am saying that wing chun will work hands down every time, then sorry if I gave that impression but that's not what I was getting at.

In relation to your "paradox" above, which I don't really see as a paradox at all either, who has trained harder? who has stronger foundations? who can move faster, has better sensitivity? who can hit harder? Who just happens to be on their game that day and who is perhaps having an off day? all of these things will come into play.

When you have two people who are extremely good martial artists I think the difference between who wins and who loses changes in nature.
For most people at an average to slightly above average level of training I think the things that will determine the outcome will be things like: Training, foundations, who is capable of being more aggressive.

Two people with well above average training: refinement of technique, the smaller details will come into it, who can keep everything together properly; which are really still a function of training.

two people who are really at the top of their style, when all other human elements are about equal, I think its only then that the details within the actual system will really come into play. For example, my sigung Sum Nung once fought a guy, sigung beat him but it was the closest he ever came to losing a fight, and it was the toughest fight he ever had. He said the only reason he won is because wing chun took a more direct line of attack than the other martial art. He and the other guy were so closely matched that the deciding factor was the art itself. For most of us I think training has more to do with it.

 

[APL76]

APL76 said:



Before I cross trained the

- preying mantis system, I was told that after I had trained it, my hands could move so fast that my opponent won't be able to see it.
- Baji system, I was told that after I had trained it, my punch could be so strong that I can punch a hole through my opponent's chest.
- Zimen system, I was told that after I had trained it, my finger tip could be so strong that whenever I touch my opponent's pressure point, my opponent could drop to death.
- Taiji system, I was told that after I had trained it, nobody can even land a drop of water on my body.
- XingYi system, I was told that after I had trained it, the moment that I punch, the moment that my opponent's body will fly into the sky.
- ...

After I have spent so many years in my cross training systems, my faith was not the same any more. In MA. everything is relative and not absolute. Nobody can say, "When I touch you, you will be dead." It all depends on how "bad" that your opponent's MA training can be.

From my perspective you have too many knives to sharpen to be able to keep any really sharp; pick the one you like best and keep it like a razor.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

wing chun took a more direct line of attack than the other martial art.

This is true. A direct line of attack will require more aggressive footwork when your opponent retreats. I know some white eyebrow system spends the 1st 6 months on nothing but footwork training. IMO, WC should start the footwork training during day one.

 

[APL76]

This is true. A direct line of attack will require more aggressive footwork when your opponent retreats. I know some white eyebrow system spends the 1st 6 months on nothing but footwork training. IMO, WC should start the footwork training during day one.

We do start the footwork training from day one, by building a solid foundation to support it, the Yi Ji Kim Yeung Ma.

 

[anerlich]

From my perspective you have too many knives to sharpen to be able to keep any really sharp; pick the one you like best and keep it like a razor.

On the other hand, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

“You should not have a favourite weapon. To become over-familiar with one weapon is as much a fault as not knowing it sufficiently well.”

Miyamoto Mushashi

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

From my perspective you have too many knives to sharpen to be able to keep any really sharp; pick the one you like best and keep it like a razor.

It's easy to say that when you fight a

- striker, you force him to play the grappling game.
- grappler, you force him to play the striking game.

In order to do so, you have to train both the striking art, and the grappling art. Even just in the grappling art, you have to train both "jacket wrestling" and "no-jacket wrestling". IMO, just train a striking art and some "anti-grappling" is not enough.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

We do start the footwork training from day one, by building a solid foundation to support it, the Yi Ji Kim Yeung Ma.

In the following southern CMA Bai Mei system form, you can see the "front foot step forward, back foot slide forward" forward has been used over and over. One Bai Mei teacher told me that his students have to spend the first 6 month only on this footwork.

IMO, WC system does not emphasize "footwork" early enough.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

From my perspective you have too many knives to sharpen to be able to keep any really sharp; pick the one you like best and keep it like a razor.

I finally find a clip that shows how to train only move the body without moving the arms. This is the opposite of the WC approach that only move the arms without moving the body. It's easy to see that, if you have your "body method" fully developed, to add in your arms is very simple and easy.

Without "cross training", you won't be able to compare different training methods.

This boy also trains "body method" without using the arms.

 

[Juany118]

There are a number of things to take into consideration.
Firstly, I'm not saying that if anyone who is good at wing chun takes on anyone else the wing chun guy will win. And I'm not assuming that any other martial art can be broken down by wing chun all the time, or that any other martial art cant break down wing chun. So if you are getting the impression I am saying that wing chun will work hands down every time, then sorry if I gave that impression but that's not what I was getting at.

In relation to your "paradox" above, which I don't really see as a paradox at all either, who has trained harder? who has stronger foundations? who can move faster, has better sensitivity? who can hit harder? Who just happens to be on their game that day and who is perhaps having an off day? all of these things will come into play.

When you have two people who are extremely good martial artists I think the difference between who wins and who loses changes in nature.
For most people at an average to slightly above average level of training I think the things that will determine the outcome will be things like: Training, foundations, who is capable of being more aggressive.

Two people with well above average training: refinement of technique, the smaller details will come into it, who can keep everything together properly; which are really still a function of training.

two people who are really at the top of their style, when all other human elements are about equal, I think its only then that the details within the actual system will really come into play. For example, my sigung Sum Nung once fought a guy, sigung beat him but it was the closest he ever came to losing a fight, and it was the toughest fight he ever had. He said the only reason he won is because wing chun took a more direct line of attack than the other martial art. He and the other guy were so closely matched that the deciding factor was the art itself. For most of us I think training has more to do with it.

I think you miss something with your sigung's experience. Namely the experience. I am not the most advanced student in my school but I often beat more advanced students in sparring. Why? Because I have, perhaps regrettably, led a life that has had as a job requirement fighting others for over 25 years (I was a soldier, now a LEO). That gives me perhaps an ability for aggression others lack but it also gives me something only experience can provide in terms of reading another combatant, lack of hesitation etc. It's never about the system. There is no special sauce. It's about how well you are trained and how well, and often, you have put the training into real practice. Your sigung has clearly done the later.

 

[Vajramusti]

In the following southern CMA Bai Mei system form, you can see the "front foot step forward, back foot slide forward" forward has been used over and over. One Bai Mei teacher told me that his students have to spend the first 6 month only on this footwork.

IMO, WC system does not emphasize "footwork" early enough.

----------------------------------------------True for many wc but not mine

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It's easy to say that when you fight a

- striker, you force him to play the grappling game.
- grappler, you force him to play the striking game.

I learned this principle from an instructor who was likely to be better at either than an opponent (Golden Gloves boxer, held rank in Shotokan, Judo, and NGA). Even with that likely advantage, he taught us ,"If he want's to box, I'll grapple. If he wants to grapple, I'll box."

 

[APL76]

On the other hand, when all you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

“You should not have a favourite weapon. To become over-familiar with one weapon is as much a fault as not knowing it sufficiently well.”

Miyamoto Mushashi

that might be the case if wing chun's only weapon were a hammer; it isn't, it should be wholistic

 

[APL76]

I think you miss something with your sigung's experience. Namely the experience. I am not the most advanced student in my school but I often beat more advanced students in sparring. Why? Because I have, perhaps regrettably, led a life that has had as a job requirement fighting others for over 25 years (I was a soldier, now a LEO). That gives me perhaps an ability for aggression others lack but it also gives me something only experience can provide in terms of reading another combatant, lack of hesitation etc. It's never about the system. There is no special sauce. It's about how well you are trained and how well, and often, you have put the training into real practice. Your sigung has clearly done the later.

Possibly, but when he himself said that the only reason he won the fight was because wing chun takes a more direct line than what he was fighting I can only take it as he said it. I figure he would know; after all, he had more fights than one could count, from street fights, leading the metal workers union in Guangzhou in their fights for territory (one of his first jobs as an adult was to teach them how to fight, which also meant he had to lead them in their fights) to actual challenge matches with other kung fu masters.

 

[APL76]

I finally find a clip that shows how to train only move the body without moving the arms. This is the opposite of the WC approach that only move the arms without moving the body. It's easy to see that, if you have your "body method" fully developed, to add in your arms is very simple and easy.

Without "cross training", you won't be able to compare different training methods.

This boy also trains "body method" without using the arms.

I think that we just wont agree on weather the "body method" should come first or the "arm method", which is fine by me. All I will say is that I have seen what I would categorise as pretty poor development in wing chun by people who forego adequate stance training, and adequate training in their punches and jun ma in isolation to try to coordinate everything to make it "more practical" before they have a basic standard to begin with. Which also relates to these questions about why people's wing chun goes to hell when they try to spar.

What I directly saw was that these students would have a big and rapid jump ahead in say a 3 to 6 year time frame of learning wing chun. they would leave their classmates (who train in the slower more focused way) a long way behind. They could defend themselves more effectively more quickly against an average attack, they had quicker reflexes/reaction time sooner, and could string a number of things into sparring better sooner.

However, once the 3-6 year time frame was past, those who did the more traditional training would begin to go well beyond the others, and those other students would face a difficult proposition. You see, because they trained the way they did (in what I would term rushing through their training) they not only had lower quality than they otherwise would have but even worse they would inevitably hit a plateau in how much they could improve. You don't need to take my word for it; go to the average wing chun school and do some sparring with students who have been there for 4, 5, or 6 years and do some sparring with ones who have been their for 10 or more. see if there is much difference between them. The difficult proposition? either be happy with what you have or go back and start from scratch and do it all over again.

In terms of cross training, I may not have cross trained different martial arts, I have however learned two different styles of wing chun, the Yip Man style in the average, go through the class and train hard and progress reasonably quickly. The Guangzhou (Sum Nung/Yeun Kay San, my sifu always just referred to them as Hong Kong and Guangzhou styles) style however I did in the old fashioned traditional way. The day I arrived at my sifu's house to start that training he said. "you start from the beginning again, that's one of the conditions and if you don't like it, there's the door". Needles to say I was more than willing to start all over again. I may not train different martial arts (I did do a little Kenjutsu) however I did learn wing chun in two different ways and from doing that I can assure you I would go for the traditional training methods every single time and encourage all my students to do the same.

I have no idea how "body method" vis a vis "arm method" relates to other styles of kung fu and so on, however when it comes to wing chun its structured like it is for good reason.