How should *Grandmaster* title be handled?

[LexTalinis]

You know, I wonder what the kenpo world would look like here in America if the fractured masses just got over some pride issues and came together as a whole, either governed, or named a head. I think that American Kenpoka would dominate the Martial arts world... Seems sort of self defeating to bicker about who's who and why.

So anyone have any theories or speculation (maybe inside info on a movement already doing this) as to how long it will take before unification occurs?

Also, some food for thought; perhaps Ed Parker did not want a unification of American Kenpo, or maybe he thought his Kenpoka would be able to decide on their own.

 

[Kosho-Monk]

If you have lived the life of a good martial artist, have worked hard at it, and improved peoples lives thru your teaching, then they and others in the martial arts community will show you the respect you deserve.

I couldn't agree more.

 

[Danjo]

either governed, or named a head

Ah, there's the rub! Who is the most qualified to do this? Is this just EPAK, Tracy's, Shaolin? etc. etc.

 

[kroh]

If you have lived the life of a good martial artist, have worked hard at it, and improved peoples lives thru your teaching, then they and others in the martial arts community will show you the respect you deserve.

Nicely put... :asian:

Walt

 

[Ray]

So anyone have any theories or speculation (maybe inside info on a movement already doing this) as to how long it will take before unification occurs?

I don't think that there will a "unification" into one organization. There are few barriers to starting a MA school (as a business); even though there are more barriers to starting an MA Association/Organization, there are still not that many (compared to other businesses).

To keep an organization going must take more skills than just being a great instructor. And an org needs to offer something to the members...I once joined an association (to remain nameless) and all I received for the fee was a really nice looking membership certificate. I've been leary of joining an association since then.

I think organizations will come and go; and there will be a few that keep going. Those that keep going will be led by people who have tremendously deep kenpo knowledge, business acumen, people skills and a true desire to want see others develope their own skills.

I did attend a couple of seminars, over the years, that were taught by leaders of different organizations and thought I got more than my money's worth.

Maybe another thread has addressed this, but why join an association? And which one to join?

 

[Gin-Gin]

I don't think that there will a "unification" into one organization. Maybe another thread has addressed this

Yes, this was addressed by GoldenDragon 7 (as well as DOC & Mr. Billings) in the "Q & A thread":
http://martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2333&page=48&pp=15&highlight=Q&A

 

[Karazenpo]

Dear, "Karazempo:"

Perhaps if you were a little less eager to try and pounce, you'd have noticed that, a) I'd not know that Mr. Kuoha referred to himself as, "'Grandmaster," b) he seems to be very polite--which I believe my post covered, c) as the real deal and a bit of an elder statesman, I believe that my note about, "as the occasion demands," pretty much covered the issue.

Could you perhaps explain which parts of what I wrote you disagreed with, and why? Thanks.

Personally, I'm wit' Kroh/Walt on this one. I think it's not only the common-sense approach, but the historically and culturally accurate one.

Not pouncing, Robert but okay, I'll elaborate. I think this 'general' statement you made is totally out of line and I used Grandmaster Kuoha as an example why and according to your response, I guess you agree. Here is what you stated that I take issue with: It's no different in academics. As I've had occasion to remark elsewhere, with maybe two exceptions, every single REALLY famous and deserving academic I've met in the last thirty years introduced themselves as something like, "Hi, I'm Ed," or, "Hi, I'm Barbara." It's the wieners who intro themselves as, "Dr," or put, "PhD," on their name tag, that you gotta watch out for.

Robert, totally unfair because I could name many martial artsits who don't use titles who are arrogant, cocky, pompous asses and whiners to boot! I could give you many examples of those that use titles who are highly respected stand up people. I hope your agreement over Grandmaster Kuoha isn't because he is not three thousand miles away and is someone you could bump into at the supermarket or a tournament.

Martial arts, Robert, originally was taught in a rather para-military way. Evidentally you were never in armed services or law enforcement, not a problem. My Chief of police, Thomas O'Laughlin is a total stand up guy, yet, at roll call or when I address him, I address him as 'Chief'. I have two personal friends who are police chiefs in two other jurisdictions and I call them 'Chief' also. You see, it's a respect thing, in the military and law enforcement, something so lacking in today's society and the martial arts. Should I go into roll call and address my chief as 'Tom' or 'Tommy' of Mr., no. of course not because it's not the proper protocol for that profession. Just like today's high schools, my childhood buddy is a teacher and a well respected teacher, yet some of the students' decided to call him 'Fran', need I say more on that situation.

Robert, we went through this before but I'll go through it again if need be. PROTOCOL.........I never used titles PERIOD until I was training under an instructor who did (Prof. Nick Cerio) and I respected his protocol. 'Sonny' Gascon does not use titles in in formal settings at all, as a matter of fact, he's uncomfortable with the 'Sijo' title out of respect to Sijo Emperado and has decided to give that title up. We must all respect each other's protocol. Robert, if your instructor starting using titles you would go along with it in a heart beat! Do you know why I'd be forward enough to say that? Simple. When Steve Spry went to his black belt video program he got the crap beat out of him on another forum. Whne fred Villari followed suit, he got pummelled also but when your instructor did, everything went quiet. Again, my philosophy threefold, 1) the 'glass house syndrome', 2) knowing what's happening in your own back yard and last but not least, 3) 'you mind your store and I'll mind mine'. That's what I live by because if you don't it will always come back to bite you in the butt. In closing, ya, I do agree with the overuse of grandmaster titles and so forth in the U.S.A. and there is nothing wrong with you voicing your opinion against it but please do so with respect to others, otherwise, you are sounding like those poeple you have met whom you didn't like that use titles, that's all I take issue with. A little courtesy.

 

[The Kai]

as the occasion demands

It seems that everyone thinks that thier grandmaster should be refered o as such, but your grandmaster?

 

[rmcrobertson]

Oh, for crying out loud.

First off, the guy introduced himself to me as, "Larry," in 1992, which is how he intros himself to everybody, and which is how I happen to know for a fact is how he's introduced himself to everybody since at least 1976, following Mr. Parker's example in such matters. It's a little late for me to start worshipping the Great Pumpkin and sacrificing chickens on a regular basis.

If you're wondering what we use at the school for formal occasions, it's, "Mr. Tatum," when we're on the mat and the occasion seems to call for it. I've never heard ANYBODY who's a student at the playpen use, "Grandmaster," "Master," or, "Ziggurat Chief." In fact, the general style is to strongly discourage the use of any titles at all for any of the instructors.

Just between you and me, I tell my college students that I prefer, "Robert," but that if they'd prefer to keep things formal, they should go with, "Dr." Then I address them as "Mr.," and, "Ms.," and somehow I haven't had any riots or insurrections over the last twenty-five years or so.

Second off, the videos have absolutely nothing to do with titles, unless you want to discuss advertising in the martial arts. Perhaps people, 'went quiet,' because they looked at them and went, "Oh....," because perhaps there was a bit of a difference in quality.

Third off, if you'd actually slow down for a second and READ WHAT I WROTE (not to mention what I've written for about three-four years now on the subject), I actually said that a) titles are fine on ceremonial and formal occasions and not so good for everyday use, b) OF COURSE one should respect other people's traditions and senior martial artists raised in different traditions, c) Mr. Kuoha could walk over my *** in a heartbeat, and I make it a policy not to offend such folks where I can possibly avoid it. Especially when they trained and taught in Hawaii.

And by the way, you still haven't pointed out the place where I was disrespectful in any fashion to the man. Unless, of course, you find, "Mr. Kuoha," somehow disrespectful, what with "Mr.," only being the abbreviation for "Master," and all. I'd also be curious to know just where it was in what I wrote that you developed this idea that I'd argued, "Oh, next time you go to roll call, by all means smart off to your boss."

So let me repeat: OF COURSE manners and respecting other people's traditions are important. OF COURSE I agree about how one addresses their boss, their teacher, etc. OF COURSE Mr. Kuoha deserves respect.

Oh, point of agreement--as Bullshido.com, some of Systema posts, some of the MMA guys, and many others show, there's the peculiarily American pomposity of, "I'm just plain folks," no titles needed as long as you kiss my butt, to contend with these days.

You seem to be determined to find the bad in whatever I write. (Or more likely, this isn't even about what I write.) Your privilege; you're still wrong. So at least try to provide evidence: if there's some SPECIFIC place where I was rude to a senior martial artist who certainly writes like a helluva nice guy, point it out and I'll apologize. Otherwise, I have nothing more to say on this thread.

 

[Danjo]

With long, handled tongs. As the piece of advertising it often is. On ceremonial and formal occasions only. As blather. As the occasion demands, since I'm not going to be rude to some 80-year-old Korean teacher who can kick my ***....

Perhaps we could ruthlessly war against all pomposity and Orientalism and narcissism in the martial arts ....

I've met pompous jerks in kenpo; I've met them in aikido, tang soo do, shotokan. Know what? In my estimation, it's the polite, well-mannered, decent folks in the arts that you want to watch out for, should push come to shove.

Your post (butchered above) did tend to sound as though you were bashing anyone that insisted on the use of titles. The idea that the only reason that you would call someone by a title is if they could kick your ***, rather than because that's what you wanted to do, says something interesting. The kind of people that do something just because they could get beat up by someone else are called by various names, especially in prison. Your post makes it clear that you consider titles "pompous" and "narcissistic" and, by extension, those that insisist on their use pompous and narcissistic, thereby throwing a generalized insult to anyone using a title. If you didn't mean to say that, it is directly implied in your post.

 

[KenpoTess]

Mod Note

Gentlemen,

This is rapidly digressing. Everyone is entitled to their own thoughts and each has the right to voice their own opinions. No one can be 'Right' and none can be 'Wrong', so either agree to disagree and start anew, or continue your personal debates via Pm or email.

Thank you,

~Tess
-MT S. Mod

 

[rmcrobertson]

Well, if you're determined to misread to this extent, about all I can do is suggest that you go back and re-read. I don't see the use of my trying to explain further, since I was very clear about my past experiences, my insistence on good manners, and my respect for other people's traditions.

Primarily, what I can't stand--in myself as well as in others--is pomposity. You might want to go back through the posts and ask yourself who's been insistent on endless titles here--"here," being an Internet forum rather than a Shaolin temple in 1687. You also might want to go back through a few of the other posts, and see whether or not you might find an example or two of this disrespect aimed elsewhere.

For example, you might ask whether or not such an issue appears in Mr. Shuras' last post. Particularly look at his remarks about the military/the cops, and about Mr. Tatum.

I will consider what you've written, but I don't agree--especially because nobody seems to be coming up with anything more than their slightly eccentric interpretation of what I wrote.

Thank you for your response, but in fact, I think this has very little to do with what I wrote. And I stand by my assertion that most of us really need to get off the rank-n'-title fascination.

 

[Danjo]

Well, maybe I misunderstood you then. Anyways, it seemed to me that the comment on Tatum had to do with the idea that many EPAK folk really lambasted the idea of video training until Tatum came out with his. Then they went silent about it. Make of that what you will.

 

[bayonet]

I think we all are off the subject here. But as far as videos go, everybody stopped talking because you cannot argue with the quality and integrity of EPAK that Mr. Tatum laid out on video. Who knows better than a man who spent over twenty years on the mat with Mr. Parker himself? As far as GM goes, Mr. Tatum has lived and breathed AK for nearly 40 years.

 

[LT2002]

I voted for 'none' of the above. I would consider that the students could bestow the honor to their instructor upon his death or retirement (should there every be a 'retirement')

There should always be proper respect between student and instructor -when this cannot be maintained, leave the style.

Too much Grand High Master nonsesnse exists in the MA world it is merely for marketing classes not measure someone's true skill. So, none is best or the student body consensus to mark the level their instructor achieved.

 

[Karazenpo]

Your post (butchered above) did tend to sound as though you were bashing anyone that insisted on the use of titles. The idea that the only reason that you would call someone by a title is if they could kick your ***, rather than because that's what you wanted to do, says something interesting. The kind of people that do something just because they could get beat up by someone else are called by various names, especially in prison. Your post makes it clear that you consider titles "pompous" and "narcissistic" and, by extension, those that insisist on their use pompous and narcissistic, thereby throwing a generalized insult to anyone using a title. If you didn't mean to say that, it is directly implied in your post.

Robert, don't get all bent out of shape, lol. It's only a forum discussion, nothing personal. However you are off base when you say I always disagree with whatever you write. There are times when I have agreed with your comments and I have told you that and there are times when I totally disagree with your comments and I've told you that too. No big thing. Right about now, I'm going to close out on this discussion for one good reason, it's because what Danjo wrote is as good as I could have, if not better, that's why I quoted him above. Let's just listen to the moderator and leave it at that.

 

[Karazenpo]

I think we all are off the subject here. But as far as videos go, everybody stopped talking because you cannot argue with the quality and integrity of EPAK that Mr. Tatum laid out on video. Who knows better than a man who spent over twenty years on the mat with Mr. Parker himself? As far as GM goes, Mr. Tatum has lived and breathed AK for nearly 40 years.

Hello bayonet, you misunderstood with Danjo and I mean't when we said about the lambasting of the video tape programs that occurred prior to Mr. Tatum's. It wasn't over the quality of any video tape but over having a video tape program 'in general' of white to black belt for big bucks with a mail order certificate and a significant test fee.

 

[GAB]

You know, I wonder what the kenpo world would look like here in America if the fractured masses just got over some pride issues and came together as a whole, either governed, or named a head. I think that American Kenpoka would dominate the Martial arts world... Seems sort of self defeating to bicker about who's who and why.

So anyone have any theories or speculation (maybe inside info on a movement already doing this) as to how long it will take before unification occurs?

Also, some food for thought; perhaps Ed Parker did not want a unification of American Kenpo, or maybe he thought his Kenpoka would be able to decide on their own.

Hi all, Subject what do you mean subject? we got no stinkinnng subject...

Lex Talinis....

I think your very much onto the right track as you continued your thought...

TO part of the subject....

Polite and humble is nice but not very realistic...I thought I knew a guy pretty good and then the other night I saw his other side and you go, wow, no wonder his son is so jumpy...

When you see the person in one setting and it is only for a little while you really don't get to know them...

He professed all the nice statements and the friendly bow's etc...

Just a little observation that keeps me awake and pretty much of a loner...

I always liked the movie "One eyed Jack"... Marlon Brando...
He makes a statement to Karl Malden who was his friend and fellow outlaw.
"You are a one eyed Jack, but I have seen your other side" or something like that.

I always like to be on the outside looking in, that way you are pretty sure you can be your own person and don't get hung up in the politics of the various groups in the dojo or in life...

I believe, be polite, but when you see injustice you have to stand up for the person who is being a victim. Under most conditions that is a tough call,
most will be polite and humble because it is easier for them to be like that...

You can be polite and say something, but it will be taken as wrong if you have offended the persons who live in glass houses...

Does that make any sense??? Oh well, just my thoughts after reading quite a few of these post's...

Regards, Gary

 

[KenpoTess]

Mod Note

This 'Debate' has been going on for almost 2 yrs in this thread.. 05-25-2003, 03:39 AM
It's time to Lock it down and discuss something else.

~Tess
-MT S. Mod-