How important is torque when punching.... why, when, how?

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Ceicei

Ok... I know you didn't mention anything about how much torque. Your response meant to me that I might... ahhh.... be "incorrect" with my reply to you.

Nooooo not incorrect, just perspective

Originally posted by Ceicei

Are you focusing on torque of wrists while punching? Is that why you are asking whether its important?

Not especially the wrists, but possibly the arms, body, or any other part that could utilize torque. You have hit on the fact that there are different parts of the body that "Can" be torqued.

:asian:

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Ceicei

Perhaps your definition of rotation/torque is different than how I consider rotation/torque?
- Ceicei

ok ..... Torque is the result of Rotational force.
1 : A force that produces or tends to produce rotation or torsion <an automobile engine delivers torque to the drive shaft>;<a straight punch in the martial arts also follows this principle> also : a measure of the effectiveness of such a force that consists of the product of the force and the perpendicular distance from the line of action of the force to the axis of rotation
2 : a turning or twisting force
:asian:
{Are we close?}

 

[Ceicei]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
ok ..... Torque is the result of Rotational force.
1 : A force that produces or tends to produce rotation or torsion <an automobile engine delivers torque to the drive shaft>;<a straight punch in the martial arts also follows this principle> also : a measure of the effectiveness of such a force that consists of the product of the force and the perpendicular distance from the line of action of the force to the axis of rotation
2 : a turning or twisting force
:asian:
{Are we close?}

As far as the dictionary goes, our definition is the same.

According to this thread, some say the rotation starts half way. As far as I'm concerned, wherever a muscle is manipulating a bone somewhere in the body, there is a form of torque and/or rotation going on.

The question is not "how much is needed" but if "it is important".

To ask whether torque is important is almost akin to asking if it's important to breathe.

- Ceicei

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Ceicei

The question is not "how much is needed" but if "it is important".

To ask whether torque is important is almost akin to asking if it's important to breathe.- Ceicei

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
You mean it won't work well if the palm is facing down?

Not well, would be what I mean.
Sean

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Not well, would be what I mean.
Sean

I don't understand......... Why? It would be (with the right hand) clockwise rotation {just starting with the palm in or down} which would be the reverse of a traditional punch (as typically practiced from a horse stance starting with the palm up)? Can't we torque in either direction depending upon point of origin with the same effect?

 

[Rainman]

How important is torque when punching.

Why- most movements have rotatation at one point or another anyways so the principed man will manipulate turns and twists for power augmentation, deception or whatnot.

When- Whenever moving ie walking, pivoting, snapping and even thrusting, something is rotating and that force should be capitalized on- otherwise the motion is wasted.

How- You mean how much- depends on the circumstance. Hairpins or loops both are useful and practical.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
I don't understand......... Why? It would be (with the right hand) clockwise rotation {just starting with the palm in or down} which would be the reverse of a traditional punch (as typically practiced from a horse stance starting with the palm up)? Can't we torque in either direction depending upon point of origin with the same effect?

you wouldn't thrust with your palm down. You could work a back nuckle off the hip from that position, I suppose. Of course no one is stopping you from teaching students punch from a horse with the palms down. This is America, after all. I won't try to prove over the martial Talk system how body mechanics work.
Sean

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
I won't try to prove over the martial Talk system how body mechanics work.
Sean

LOL........... good thing.

:asian:

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
LOL........... good thing.

:asian:

GD7, well I played withthe idea a little and have found that if you start with your hands down your motion automaticly flows outward. Whats more is that you end up with the Ulnus bone(inside bone I get radial and ulna mixed up) striking the target. Palms up gives you the traditional thrust we have come to know and love. Palms down, then, would not acheive the desired affect.
Sean

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
GD7, well I played withthe idea a little and have found that if you start with your hands down your motion automaticly flows outward. Whats more is that you end up with the Ulnus bone(inside bone I get radial and ulna mixed up) striking the target. Palms up gives you the traditional thrust we have come to know and love. Palms down, then, would not acheive the desired affect.
Sean

Actually I was getting to the point that you "CAN" Punch forward, with the palm up {inverted punch or uppercut as in B1b} "OR" down {normal 2 knuckle punch} equally, snapping or thrusting is no issue as these are methods of execution ..... it doesn't matter ... both are effective.

Both examples can be found in the Technique Destructive Twins.
:asian:

 

[Nick Ellerton]

Forms are a good indication as to how important torque is, and it is evident in Mr Parkers Long Form 1. As soon as you being this form you no how to get the best effective exercution for a punch. Opening up the hips and turning ur wrist as you drop into a forward bow is the best way to execute a kenpo punch with the rear hand. but as far as lead hand punching is concerned then its open season.

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7

Both examples can be found in the Technique Destructive Twins.
:asian:

Oddly enough, I was never taught that one. I did read the description on MARTIALTALK.COM and remember not liking that move. Perhaps that is one of the reasons it was thrown out of the system.
Sean

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
Oddly enough, it was thrown out of the system. Sean

Really...... by whom may I ask?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Really...... by whom may I ask?

I never asked that question. I just know it wasn't offered in the technique lists we were going off of. There is a list of others on the Kenponet that were also discontinued and I don't know whom discontinued them either. I'm sure someone over there can give you the low down.:asian:
Sean

 

[Kenpo Yahoo]

I find it strange that with all this talk about torque that no one has ventured outside the realm of the punching arm. One example even isolated the arm movement from the rest of the body (punching from a horse). This may be fine for white and yellow belts, but beyond this there should be a drastic expansion of this concept, particulary noting the summation of full body motion. Also there was no mention of how much torque is necessary only that it is necessary. So to use the previous example, when punching from a horse stance (hand- palm up in chambered position) how far does the hand rotate? Should it go all the way around to a palm down position? Why or why not?

Just some thoughts

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Touch'O'Death
I never asked that question. I just know it wasn't offered in the technique lists we were going off of. There is a list of others on the Kenponet that were also discontinued and I don't know whom discontinued them either. :asian:
Sean

Did you drop Short and Long 3 as well?

Since it is the very first technique of those forms, I find it interesting that "ANYONE" would drop them out of the system.

Who is your instructor again?

 

[Goldendragon7]

Originally posted by Kenpo Yahoo
I find it strange that with all this talk about torque that no one has ventured outside the realm of the punching arm.

Advanced students should have a drastic expansion of this concept [torque], particulary noting the summation of full body motion.

Also there was no mention of "how much" torque is necessary only that it is necessary.

Using the previous example, when punching from a horse stance (hand- palm up in chambered position) how far does the hand rotate?

Should it go all the way around to a palm down position?

Why or why not?

Just some thoughts

Yes, you are correct...... but the discussion just didn't quite reach that level yet...... thanks............

Regulating, the timing of "when" & at what point (where) the torque starts has yet to be explored totally.

"Body Rotation" is of course a fundamental "base" for the arms and legs.....just as inquiry as to what "measure of degree" {Analytical Study of Motion Book V} such as 45 degrees, 90 degrees 180 degree, and 270 degree punches that we do for various reasons in different scenarios...

thanks for the prompt...... lets see where it goes......

:asian:

 

[ob2c]

Originally posted by ob2c & Goldendragon7
Torque would be important in a major, or power strike.
Why not in minor strikes like rakes? Why just "power strikes"? Wouldn't torque be beneficial in these areas also?

I was thinking in terms ofwhole body torque and relative importance. It could be siad that torque is inherent in every move we make at some level, so any discussion of torque would have to be in this context. A better way to state it would be that torque is 'more important' in a power strike.

It's usually important to bring the trailing hand into play as well. hmmmmmm Please explain further, I'm not sure I understand.

We don't normally face our opponent squarely. Our default stance is the neutral bow, which puts us at 45', and on one side our natural weapons are trailing. This requires either a positional or a stance change to bring those weapons effectively into play. Torquing into a forward bow (or other stance) is one way to accomplish this.

Other times it would not be important might be with: snapping, lead hand jabs or lead hand punches with a foot maneuver/ backup mass, finger strikes or other strikes to sensitive targets-say a back hammerfist to the groin.
Well, any strike could be useful torqued or not..... but it seems to me, that torque would enhance all strikes to some degree.... yes/no?

Exactly. Its importance is a matter of degrees, at least as I see it. With a finger technique to the eyes, torque may only be important to position the strike. Other times, other power principles would be more important, though torque may be there and is still an important factor. An example would be the downward elbow strike at the end of Crossing Talon. It has a lot of torque, but marriage of gravity is the major power principle in the move. In a power punch with the trailing hand it would be important both for position and reach, and for power generation. In the latter case, torque is brought into play at all levels: the rear leg rotates into position, hips turn squarely to the front, torso follows with hips to square up, arm extends and torques. Torque brings everything into harmoniouse structural and positional allignment with compounding speed and power.

Hope that is a little clearer.

 

[kenpo_cory]

Originally posted by Goldendragon7
Did you drop Short and Long 3 as well?

Since it is the very first technique of those forms, I find it interesting that "ANYONE" would drop them out of the system.

Who is your instructor again?

We dropped short and long 3 but we still do destructive twins, it's just different than what's in the forms.