How did Taekwon-Do (1955) predating 1966 look like?

[RTKDCMB]

He is not a native English speaker and despite what he will tell you his English, while good, is not always what it should be.

Personally I tend not to say too much about someone else's English as my spelling and grammar suck, thankfully I make productive use of the spellchecker.

 

[Tez3]

Personally I tend not to say too much about someone else's English as my spelling and grammar suck, thankfully I make productive use of the spellchecker.

I and the others wouldn't have said anything either until he started telling us he was more intelligent than us and his English was far better than ours!

 

[elder999]

I and the others wouldn't have said anything either until he started telling us he was more intelligent than us and his English was far better than ours!

Rather than talk about how smart he isn't, let's take a look at keeping the thread on topic.....it's an interesting topic, while I find posts about Mr. LaPlace decidedly......uninteresting.

Here's some video, "Tae Kwon Do" in the 50's:

Start this next one at about the 11 minute mark, unless you want to watch a bunch of very Japanese-looking makiwara training.....(interesting, but it gets even more interesting at 10-11 minutes in....)

Here's some "ITF tae kwon do" from the 60's...note the lack of "bouncing" or "sine wave," and how they sink into their punches properly...

 

[Laplace_demon]

from Tang Soo Do:

• For his ong, instead of having forms "1, 2, 3" Norris basically adds two half-way forms: "1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3" ...where 1.5 is just like 1, but with some extra kicks, and 2.5 is just like 2, but with some extra combinations.
  
  Actually, I think that's not a bad innovation. A beginner learns his first basic form, and then his second basic form is exactly the same, just with some extra kicks. If you think about it, that probably does a really nice job of making the beginning feel like they're learning something fresh at their second form, while forcing the beginning to continue to reiterate on the basics. Nice. Clever. But it doesn't really differentiate this from Tang Soo Do that much.
  
  
• Then Norris cherry-picks from the common Tang Soo Do forms to teach the ones he likes: just the Pyong Ahn forms, Bassai, and Kong Sang Koon, and Jion.
  
  So, again, not really different from Tang Soo Do. Arguably, just a subset of Tang Soo Do, presumably teaching the techniques and combinations that Norris cares about most.
  
  
• Then Norris makes up 3 new forms: two advanced unarmed forms, and one bo-staff form.

Voila! That's a recipe for Chun Kuk Do. Not that different from Tang Soo Do. But the fact that it's so much like Tang Soo Do doesn't de-legitimize Chun Kuk Do.

Or...if it does...I'm not going to be the one to tell Chuck Norris! [/QUOTE]

Chuck Norris does not make grandiose claims about his art. He has been very up front about the mixture. Unlike General Choi, who claimed to have single handidly invented TKD, when he in fact encouraged practitioners of Tang Soo Do to change it's name to Taekwon-Do. Wow, he must have really been inventing their martial art, a name change!

Very interesting. Which of the groups that consider themselves to be the ITF do not practice sine wave?

Also, how long have you practiced Taekwon-Do in the ITF and which one?

Pax,

Chris

• "After the 1973 split, Choi Hong Hi continued to develop and refine the style, ultimately publishing his work in his 1987 Encyclopedia of Taekwondo. Among the refinements incorporated into this new sub-style is the "sine wave"; one of Choi Hong Hi's later principles of taekwondo is that the body's center of gravity should be raised-and-lowered throughout a movement.

Some ITF schools adopt the sine wave style, while others do not. Essentially all ITF schools do, however, use the patterns (teul) defined in the Encyclopedia, with some exceptions related to the forms Juche and Ko-Dang."Taekwondo - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

I can at least name ITF style schools with no sine wave, but I don't see the point. I am up for green belt in ITF

 

[Drose427]

Rather than talk about how smart he isn't, let's take a look at keeping the thread on topic.....it's an interesting topic, while I find Mr. LaPlace decidedly......uninteresting.

One thing i think is important to remember about TKD at that time is how there really wasnt one set standard yet. People like Choi were trying, but many schools calling themselves Taekwondo were still doing thing very differwntly

I mean many places just changed their school name to TKD and tried to fall in with major orgs. So it would be plausible tohat we would have seen "ITF" schools at that time that look a bit different from the "ITF" schools that had direct ties to Choi. Although, i should say that I do not know when Choi brought in the Sine wave. We have no real affiliation to choi or ITF so i simply dont know

 

[Tez3]

Rather than talk about how smart he isn't, let's take a look at keeping the thread on topic.....it's an interesting topic, while I find posts about Mr. LaPlace decidedly......uninteresting.

Ah clever that, setting yourself up for his interest....

 

[Gnarlie]

1st Ever Taekwon-Do Book The History of Taekwon-Do people also need to see this...

And this

https://historyoftaekwondo.files.wordpress.com/2015/03/1959_tkddemoprogram.pdf

Two bits of history made available very recently.

 

[elder999]

Ah clever that, setting yourself up for his interest....

Nah. I meant every word, even though his post was the OP, and it is a subject of more than a little interest to me, given my history, and one that he(?) and I have a fair amount of agreement on....otherwise,he, his posts, and , most especially, posts about him are generally not very interesting.

 

[TrueJim]

Although, i should say that I do not know when Choi brought in the Sine wave...

According to "A Killing Art", the Sine Wave was developed in the early 1980s.

If I'm not mistaken then, the timing goes something like this:

• 1965 - Choi publishes his first reference, Tae Kwon Do - Art of Self Defense
• 1967 - Choi publishes his first edition of The Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do
• 1980 - Choi introduces taekwon-do to North Korea
• 1980s (early) - Choi introduces the form Juche and the Sine Wave into taekwon-do
• 1984 - Choi publishes an updated and expanded version of The Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do (the first version to include Juche and the Sine Wave)
• 1999 - The last edition of The Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do with which Choi is directly involved is published

 

[chrispillertkd]

"After the 1973 split, Choi Hong Hi continued to develop and refine the style, ultimately publishing his work in his 1987 Encyclopedia of Taekwondo. Among the refinements incorporated into this new sub-style is the "sine wave"; one of Choi Hong Hi's later principles of taekwondo is that the body's center of gravity should be raised-and-lowered throughout a movement.

Some ITF schools adopt the sine wave style, while others do not. Essentially all ITF schools do, however, use the patterns (teul) defined in the Encyclopedia, with some exceptions related to the forms Juche and Ko-Dang."Taekwondo - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

I can at least name ITF style schools with no sine wave, but I don't see the point.

That's interesting. I cannot name any schools that belong to any of the ITF's - and I know people that being to all three ITF organizations - that do not practice sine wave. Even the schools I know of that have joined one of the ITF organizations have in short order adopted sine wave. I suppose if you want to get pedantic you could say that at one point those school weren't practicing sine wave but if you join the ITF you adopt sine wave. Period. That's much different that you saying sine wave isn't a universal practice in the ITF or Wikipedia, an online source I could go and edit right now to say something else if I wanted to, saying that some ITF schools adopt sine wave while others don't as if it's just an option. You might as well say some Isshin Ryu schools use a vertical fist when punching and some don't or some Wing Chun school use chain punching while others don't. You know, whatever they want to do.

As for when sine wave was introduced, GM Kim, Yong Soo, who was the ITF chief instructor at one point, said in an interview in 2005 that it was introduced in the late 1960's. I'm going to take his word on it over Wikipedia's. You can make up your own mind on the matter, of course.

I am up for green belt in ITF

Well, that's a long time. I'm sure you have a pretty good handle on the nuances of the art and its history at this point.

Pax,

Chris

 

[chrispillertkd]

According to "A Killing Art", the Sine Wave was developed in the early 1980s.

No, that's just when Gen Choi coined the term to describe what he had already been teaching.

Pax,

Chris

 

[elder999]

That's interesting. I cannot name any schools that belong to any of the ITF's - and I know people that being to all three ITF organizations - that do not practice sine wave.

I'm sure there are schools in the U.S. practiciing the Chang Hon forms without the sine wave. You yourself have said as much in the past:

Dancingalone already touched on this, but I'd say there are probably more people who practice Gen. Choi's patterns without sine wave than there are who practice them with sine wave. Of course, within this group of non-sine-wavers you have a variety of practices. You get people who are basically doing Shotokan techniques but performing the Chang Hun tuls, you have people who are using a degree of "knee spring" when performing techniques but don't refer to it as sine wave, you have people who are between those two points, etc.

Well, that's a long time. I'm sure you have a pretty good handle on the nuances of the art and its history at this point.

Pax,

Chris

a rollingeyes smiley might have helped a little there......

 

[Gnarlie]

According to "A Killing Art", the Sine Wave was developed in the early 1980s.

If I'm not mistaken then, the timing goes something like this:

• 1965 - Choi publishes his first reference, Tae Kwon Do - Art of Self Defense
• 1967 - Choi publishes his first edition of The Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do
• 1980 - Choi introduces taekwon-do to North Korea
• 1980s (early) - Choi introduces the form Juche and the Sine Wave into taekwon-do
• 1984 - Choi publishes an updated and expanded version of The Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do (the first version to include Juche and the Sine Wave)
• 1999 - The last edition of The Encyclopedia of Taekwon-Do with which Choi is directly involved is published

Hey Jim.

I posted a link earlier to Chois first book about Taekwondo from 1959, not 1965. Thought you might like to add it to the wiki, it covers a lot of technical information and contains photos. The main text is in Korean, but even the pictures probably answer some of he questions in the OP.

I also included a link to the program to the first Taekwondo Demo in South East, again 1959, which lists which master did what in English and what patterns were performed.

These documents were recently made public to celebrate 60 years of Taekwondo.

 

[chrispillertkd]

I'm sure there are schools in the U.S. practiciing the Chang Hon forms without the sine wave. You yourself have said as much in the past:

Of course, but that isn't the issue as Laplace_Demon's post and my reply made clear. He claimed that there were ITF groups that didn't practice sine wave and then that there were individual schools that belonged to the ITF that don't. People can and do practice the Chang Hun tul without being a member of the ITF. They can do whatever they want and I have no problem with that (more power to them, in fact).

What I have a problem with is twofold:

1) making an untenable assertion (sine wave "is not universally practised by ITF" [sic]), and

2) moving the goal posts ("I can at least name ITF style schools with no sine wave"). You'd think an undergrad in philosophy would be able to spot that logical fallacy coming a mile away (or a kilometer away since he's from Europe).

Note in the original comment, to which I was replying, the claim was that sine wave isn't universally practiced by the ITF. I'm still waiting to see any sort of evidence to back that up, including hearing which ITF group Laplace belongs to Maybe that's the one that has made it optional. I'd like to know for no other reason that I haven't seen this before (excepting those schools which are in the process of joining the ITF and changing over to its syllabus, as I mentioned earlier).

Every ITF Grand Master and Master I have had the opportunity to train with (including Gen. Choi, GM Hwang, Kwang Sung, GM Chuck Sereff, and GM Choi, Jung Hwa) have all covered sine wave and discussed its purpose and how to utilize it. So I'd just like to know which ITF has made it an optional practice, that's all.

Pax,

Chris

 

[Earl Weiss]

Everybody knows ITFs origin. The question is which substantial improvements Choi brought to the table,.

Well, my response initialy is how anyone would: A. Quantify what is an "Improvement" let alone a substantial improvement; and B. What would be the answer for the same question asked about Kano, Funakoshi, Ueshiba, or the KKW.

With regard to General Choi, things he did:

1. Changged from only relying on being "Deeply Rooted" so popular with Shotokan, to having a more mobile system, even while airborne;
2. Unify and codify a system from Fragments as practiced in Korea so it could be taught uniformly on a wide scale, setting forth technical parameters for attacking tools, how to use them against which vital spots, stances and purpose for the stance.
3. Develop instructors and dispatch them throughout the world to demonstrate and teach
4. Recruit instructors practicing the root systems and have them come on board to spread the art on a unified scale.

With regard to #2 above, having trained with old time Korean isntructors the lessons were "Like this" or "Not like this" . Seldom was there an explanation. General Choi gave reasons for his methodologies, which was unusual, which is not to say that reasoneable minds would not differ about whether they agrred with him, but at least he gave reasons. He also welcomed "Good" questions whereas in other schools asking questions was often considered disrepsectful. He also employed the socratic method when teaching.

Examples: Low outer forearm Block. Block stops with thumb knucle even with center line. Other systems had it stop over the front leg. His reason was the abdomen is exposed if the arm moves further out. Leaving it there continues the protection.

Walking Stance. Lead loower leg angles rearword so kneecap is over heel. Other systems, lower leg is vertical. His makes it much easier for lead leg kiscking withou as large a weight shift.

Since his extensive text contains 15 volumes the above is certainly not meant to be exhaustive.

 

[elder999]

Hey Jim.

I posted a link earlier to Chois first book about Taekwondo from 1959, not 1965. Thought you might like to add it to the wiki, it covers a lot of technical information and contains photos. The main text is in Korean, but even the pictures probably answer some of he questions in the OP.

I also included a link to the program to the first Taekwondo Demo in South East, again 1959, which lists which master did what in English and what patterns were performed.

These documents were recently made public to celebrate 60 years of Taekwondo.

And I posted some pre-sine wave ITF tae kwon do upthread as well...then, of course, there's this resounding demonstration of what I think is a complete misunderstanding of physics and basic body mechanics:

 

[Gnarlie]

And I posted some pre-sine wave ITF tae kwon do upthread as well...then, of course, there's this resounding demonstration of what I think is a complete misunderstanding of physics and basic body mechanics:

That video is puzzling. Is he saying that they should never twist their waist or that they ARE never twisting their waist?

And is he saying that power can be added into that second forward punch by essentially falling backward away from it as part of the sine wave drop? Sounds iffy...

 

[Gnarlie]

There are loads of places in Germany that practice the Chang Hon set and do not use the sine wave. They call themselves 'Traditional Taekwondo', but I am fairly sure they have no link to the ITF. I wonder if this is the case in Sweden.

 

[chrispillertkd]

That video is puzzling. Is he saying that they should never twist their waist or that they ARE never twisting their waist?

Sometimes you have to know the system in the first place in order to understand what you're being taught. One of Gen. Choi's "Basic Principles" for stepping is: "The body must always become half facing the opponent when stepping backwards and forwards."

This not only reduces the potential that you are hit because you don't present as open of a target as you could but it also makes utilizing your hip quite natural with no need for an over exaggerated twisting. (This all assumes one is familiar with the concept of full, half, and side facing in the first place, of course.)

What is being shown in the video, however, is not technically stepping it's moving from a kick into two punches. After executing the front snap kick one is already full facing. If you were to try to get into a half facing position before executing the first punch you would have to rotate the hip and torso backwards first, thus diminishing any momentum you had after the kick. When moving from a full facing position (after the kick) directly into another full facing position (the punch) you stay full facing. Hence Gen. Choi telling him not to twist his body and making sire his torso stays full facing during both punches.

And is he saying that power can be added into that second forward punch by essentially falling backward away from it as part of the sine wave drop? Sounds iffy...

IMO the person demonstrating is doing a poor job there. The backwards motion should be negated by engaging the knee of the front leg.

Pax,

Chris

 

[TrueJim]

No, that's just when Gen Choi coined the term to describe what he had already been teaching [Sine Wave].

Yah, "A Killing Art" kind of alludes to that fact. That book claims (for what it's worth) that Choi had already been teaching and up-and-down motion, but he hadn't named it "Sine Wave" yet, and that in 1980 Choi did two things:

• Gave the motion a name, but also
• Exaggerated the motion

So I'm not sure what date I'd set as the "start" of the Sine Wave.