honsuki and NCK

[kenpoquilter]

Wow...I thought I'd seen all the variations....

There's a link to a video of me doing it linked somewhere on this board. Ill try to find it. There's a couple versions available at my site. Just search for it.

This is kind of off topic, but I use your site a TON! I'm relatively new to kenpo (been studying with Jeff for about a year) but find that I need to read through the techniques and stuff to remember them, guess it's just how I learn things. Jeff laughs at my notebook I carry around with me with all my notes and diagrams from my classes. Anyway, I stumbled across your archive in one of my many web searches and absolutely love it. Kenpo is difficult to find written out like that. There are some differences in a few things, but not many, between what you have and how Jeff teaches it, but I guess that's why it's an art. It usually results in interesting classes when I bring your stuff in and ask about the differences. The site is really helpful.

 

[kenpoquilter]

Jeff isn't with Northern Chi anymore, I think he learned this prior to joining with them. I'll find out who he got the form from and let you know.

Jeff got the form from Paul Barber in New York.

 

[kenpoquilter]

Jeff got the form from Paul Barber in New York.

and he adapted it for the tournament.

 

[Matt]

This is kind of off topic, but I use your site a TON! I'm relatively new to kenpo (been studying with Jeff for about a year) but find that I need to read through the techniques and stuff to remember them, guess it's just how I learn things. Jeff laughs at my notebook I carry around with me with all my notes and diagrams from my classes. Anyway, I stumbled across your archive in one of my many web searches and absolutely love it. Kenpo is difficult to find written out like that. There are some differences in a few things, but not many, between what you have and how Jeff teaches it, but I guess that's why it's an art. It usually results in interesting classes when I bring your stuff in and ask about the differences. The site is really helpful.

Glad you like it. There's a thread for it in the technical section if you have any suggestions / comments. I met Jeff a while back - he was nice, he worked with my friend Chris for a bit.

 

[Matt]

and he adapted it for the tournament.

Oh, ok, that makes sense. Sometimes the Northern Chi forms had 'tweaks' in them, so I thought maybe that was the case.

 

[youngbraveheart]

here's a link to a video of my sensei doing hon suki a few weeks ago at a tournament in Portland Maine...

...so that's the Honsuki...who's version is that?

 

[14 Kempo]

...so that's the Honsuki...who's version is that?

I can only say that is not the SKK version that I know and I've had it since the 80s. It is recognizable, but very different.

 

[DavidCC]

please
please
please tape yours!

 

[Matt]

It's up at my site in a blog post. It's a small video, but reasonably clear.

 

[RevIV]

...so that's the Honsuki...who's version is that?

You know what would be really great? If we could actually see the original version created by your teachers father GM Chun Sr. Master Chun Jr. has teased us a few times out here by showing bits and pieces of it, and he sure did not do the "7 flowery hands of the tiger" version. Just got off the phone with Shihan and the next Unity seminar in New England is almost confirmed. The best way to show respect to this form would be for the masses to see the original and know how it started instead of doing the bastardized versions that we do or have seen in this thread. But that is for another thread and another set of old school beliefs.
In Peace,
Jesse

 

[youngbraveheart]

You know what would be really great? If we could actually see the original version created by your teachers father GM Chun Sr. Master Chun Jr. has teased us a few times out here by showing bits and pieces of it, and he sure did not do the "7 flowery hands of the tiger" version. Just got off the phone with Shihan and the next Unity seminar in New England is almost confirmed. The best way to show respect to this form would be for the masses to see the original and know how it started instead of doing the bastardized versions that we do or have seen in this thread. But that is for another thread and another set of old school beliefs.
In Peace,
Jesse

Hey Jesse, that'd be great if Master Chun would show the Hansuki and explain it's history...Why don't you ask? It's interesting to try to figure out when, why, and how the Hansuki was "borrowed" and recreated into different versions.

I only know of less than a handful of selected people (blackbelts) that were given the privilege of learning the form Grandmaster Bill Chun Sr. created. I do get to see in person how awesome Hansuki is...

Good luck if you're gonna ask...

Johnny

 

[RevIV]

Hey Jesse, that'd be great if Master Chun would show the Hansuki and explain it's history...Why don't you ask? It's interesting to try to figure out when, why, and how the Hansuki was "borrowed" and recreated into different versions.

I only know of less than a handful of selected people (blackbelts) that were given the privilege of learning the form Grandmaster Bill Chun Sr. created. I do get to see in person how awesome Hansuki is...

Good luck if you're gonna ask...

Johnny

Ha.. no way, I just try to find myself lucky if I'm around the person who does ask, and if Master Chun Jr. happens to show a piece I will watch for sure.
as to the "borrowed" statement. (i liked the " " ) I will give the quickest writeup to what i have heard. Master Chun Sr. showed Prof. Cerio, Prof. Cerio showed his brother, while practicing the form GM Villari watched and took the basics of the form and for the parts he could not remember added his flare. Thats the simplist jist of things as I know it. which means it could be completely wrong - not to unlike most of the SKK history as Matt would tell you. haha, see i do understand Matt.
Jesse

 

[youngbraveheart]

Ha.. no way, I just try to find myself lucky if I'm around the person who does ask, and if Master Chun Jr. happens to show a piece I will watch for sure...

LOL about "Ha.. no way" :wink1:

The question to ponder is: "Was the Hansuki Grandmaster Chun Sr. showed Professor Cerio the original form in its entirety (all intact) or a facsimile?" (I understand GM Chun Sr. and Great GM Chow were guarded about their Kenpo/Kempo.) I can see how a form can transform or morph into something different when different people are involved and when they put in their own "stuff"...Wonder what GM Chun Sr. would think if he saw others doing the Honsuki?...

 

[RevIV]

LOL about "Ha.. no way" :wink1:

The question to ponder is: "Was the Hansuki Grandmaster Chun Sr. showed Professor Cerio the original form in its entirety (all intact) or a facsimile?" (I understand GM Chun Sr. and Great GM Chow were guarded about their Kenpo/Kempo.) I can see how a form can transform or morph into something different when different people are involved and when they put in their own "stuff"...Wonder what GM Chun Sr. would think if he saw others doing the Honsuki?...

I'll tell you what.. I have no idea. By the time i learned it, the form had already passed through 3 generations of Kempo guys on the east coast. Cerio-Villari-Bagley. As far as GM Chun Sr. I can only assumer he would ask what his son asked. "Why do the form if you know its wrong?" Of course this was not a truly answerable question when he posed it to me, so I nodded and told him i would ponder that. Still pondering.
Jesse

 

[youngbraveheart]

I'll tell you what.. I have no idea. By the time i learned it, the form had already passed through 3 generations of Kempo guys on the east coast. Cerio-Villari-Bagley. As far as GM Chun Sr. I can only assumer he would ask what his son asked. "Why do the form if you know its wrong?" Of course this was not a truly answerable question when he posed it to me, so I nodded and told him i would ponder that. Still pondering.
Jesse

...I guess I'd still be pondering too...others must not be asking themselves this question or know the history since there seems to be videos you can find on the internet showing this form...

I guess the passing on of a form is like telling a story at one end of a line and the story changes by the time it reaches the end of the line...as a naive beginner, I'm learning about "what not to do!"...

 

[RevIV]

until the internet most people did not know they were doing anything wrong. In fact out here in the villari section they only new villari. I was fortunate to have a teacher who loved history and had studied many other arts and did not get into Kempo until later in life.
Jesse

 

[youngbraveheart]

I was fortunate to have a teacher who loved history and had studied many other arts and did not get into Kempo until later in life.
Jesse

Sorry for my ignorance and naivete...who is your teacher (no offense for not knowing)? Unfortunately, I'm probably the only one (in the world) who doesn't know who's who in the Kenpo/Kempo world today and yesterday...(IMHO GM Chun Sr. doesn't get the recognition that someone of his stature deserves...as if people have blinders on) BTW I'm sure Master Chun is looking forward to seeing you guys on the east coast...

 

[kenpoquilter]

I'll tell you what.. I have no idea. By the time i learned it, the form had already passed through 3 generations of Kempo guys on the east coast. Cerio-Villari-Bagley. As far as GM Chun Sr. I can only assumer he would ask what his son asked. "Why do the form if you know its wrong?" Of course this was not a truly answerable question when he posed it to me, so I nodded and told him i would ponder that. Still pondering.
Jesse

I guess I'm confused, and also a new comer to this, so no disrespect is meant. But how can one do a form 'wrong' when this is an 'art'? It seems every time a form is passed from Sensei to Student it will be changed, even if only slightly. Much like a previous reply stated...like playing whisper down the lane, the message changes with each person.

I just don't view this as a 'science' where there is a prescribed method and you must perform the form that way each and every time. We'd all look like a bunch of robots if we did that.

If a form is modified and the movements that differ from the original have a plausible bunkai, what is 'wrong' with that, isn't that how the 'art' evolves and moves forward? Is the issue with calling the form 'hon suki' when it may not be exactly how it was performed originally?

 

[DavidCC]

Quilter, you have struck upon a very important distinction - art v science.

In an Art it is darn near impossible to say that one exection is "correct" and the other "incorrect". In science this is almost required.

of course correct and incorrect you have to define that too once you get out of the Art realm.

So in Martial Arts, correct might mean "makes maximum use of my body" and incorrect could mean "makes less than optimal use of my body".

Compare similar 2 movements or techniques accomplishing the same goal artistically and one is as good as another. Approach them scientifically and only one can be "correct" (although both could be incorrect!)

When it comes to looking at kata and history of kata, "correct" means something else. I think it is pretty subjective, it means something like "correct is the way I learned it from the person (or tradition) who I respect the most".

I prefer to analyze my techniques and movements "scientifiically" as opposed to artistically. With life and limb on the line, I really am interested in what makes BEST use of all my resources, and some aspects are just not open to interpretation at that point. "Plausible" is not good enough.

 

[youngbraveheart]

... But how can one do a form 'wrong' when this is an 'art'?...

Coming from a novice, "wrong" might be taking or borrowing someone else's form and making it your own by not showing anything resembling the original form. Our teacher has told us what forms (i.e. kata) creativity entails and how to give credit to the original form...(Maybe this is plain "old school" way of thinking versus today's "fast food" way of martial arts.) I don't think borrowing or stealing necessarily shows creativity...but what do I know...I'm barely a color belt...