history and meaning of jeon and o sip sa bo hyung

[K-7]

"can anyone please direct me in finding information on the history and meanings of the forms: JION & O SIP SA BO HYUNGS.

thank you for your attention in this matter...

 

[kenmpoka]

"can anyone please direct me in finding information on the history and meanings of the forms: JION & O SIP SA BO HYUNGS.

thank you for your attention in this matter...

Jion = Temple sound.....Chinese origin, taught in Okinawan, Japanese, and korean Karate disciplines.

Sorry I am not familiar with O Sip Sa Bo.....!Does it go by any other name?

Salute,

 

[Master Reed]

Jion,
The form Jion is usually done by 5th Dan and is approximately 300 years old, and was named after the founder Jion , a Buddhist Saint. The animal representation is Ram or Goat. Ji On form means To Love the Sound of Shaolin or Temple Sound, it also means "JI is to develop technique and On means to build physical conditioning and ability in sparring".
Oh Sip Sa Bo,
The form Oh Sip Sa Bo is usually done by 6th Dan and is approximately 400 years old, and the founder is unknown but comes from the Southern China in the Ha Nam area. The animal representation is the Tiger or Black Tiger. Oh Sip Sa Bo means 54 steps of the Black Tiger. There are many versions of these forms and some people will give you a slight different meaning and history but I researched this and helped out on a book "time to plug" Complete Tang Soo Do Manual, By my Master GM Ho Sik Pak. And the book has all of the advanced forms and requirements from 2nd Dan to 6th Dan - Vol.2. Good Luck

Master Reed

 

[Gene Williams]

Jion,
The form Jion is usually done by 5th Dan and is approximately 300 years old, and was named after the founder Jion , a Buddhist Saint. The animal representation is Ram or Goat. Ji On form means To Love the Sound of Shaolin or Temple Sound, it also means "JI is to develop technique and On means to build physical conditioning and ability in sparring".
Oh Sip Sa Bo,
The form Oh Sip Sa Bo is usually done by 6th Dan and is approximately 400 years old, and the founder is unknown but comes from the Southern China in the Ha Nam area. The animal representation is the Tiger or Black Tiger. Oh Sip Sa Bo means 54 steps of the Black Tiger. There are many versions of these forms and some people will give you a slight different meaning and history but I researched this and helped out on a book "time to plug" Complete Tang Soo Do Manual, By my Master GM Ho Sik Pak. And the book has all of the advanced forms and requirements from 2nd Dan to 6th Dan - Vol.2. Good Luck

Master Reed

We don't actually know how old Jion is, it means "Temple Sound," there was a Buddhist priest named Jion, but we do not know if there is any connection between him and the kata. We (and most Okinawan karate ryu) teach Jion around brown belt or shodan. It is a fairly simple kata with lots of fundamentals. It has absolutely nothing to do with "sparring," and does not represent a ram or goat. Quit making stuff up.

 

[Moogong]

Quit making stuff up.

:uhyeah: :uhyeah: Gene cracks me up. Outspoken on every board! :ultracool

 

[Gene Williams]

Hey, BS on one board is BS on another.

 

[Makalakumu]

One would think that a 4th dan would know better...

I mean no disrespect to Master Reed, but in KMA I've found that misunderstanding of these kata are common. It's frustrating to learn something teach it and learn that it was wrong. And it takes a lot of humility to learn, change, and move on.

Hopefully, in the future, all of us KMA practicioners can be more accurate...

 

[Master Reed]

Let me check the last time I looked at the top of the screen it said TANG SOO DO and not (most Okinawan karate), this form is practiced as a fifth or sisth Dan form in Tang Soo Do, and as in most styles everybody jumps on the ban wagon claming to now the origin of the form. I was not quoting form the "Gene Williams book of I now everything about Karate and so there for your wrong book" I was quoting Gichin Funakoshi's Book Karate-Do Kyohan and the name suggests that the Kata was introduced by someone identified with Jion Temple, just as the name Sorin-ji Kempo is derived from its connection with the Shorin or Shaolin Temple. I just went by most interpolations and like most it has many different one's I'm sorry it offended you. I will make every effort to be more vague and check with you next time.

 

[shesulsa]

Mod. Note.
Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

-G Ketchmark / shesulsa
-MT Senior Moderator-

 

[Gene Williams]

Funakoshi's book says nothing about how old the kata is or that it was named after the monk Jion. He merely points out that the name Jion is commonly found. He also says nothing about it being taught at 5th dan or any dan. Kata do not generally have a "dan" rank associated with them except as each ryu or kai assigns them. Funakoshi also says nothing about it being associated with a ram or goat. Jion is an Okinawan kata; maybe Korean stylists should quit borrowing and calling what they do "karate." If you are teaching/learning Jion at fifth dan, maybe you need to bootleg some more advanced kata. My brown belts do it, and do it well. I think the word you want is "interpretation," not "interpolation." Interpolation means, interestingly enough, "to insert something between other things, especially in a misleading way."

 

[Makalakumu]

Funakoshi's book says nothing about how old the kata is or that it was named after the monk Jion. He merely points out that the name Jion is commonly found. He also says nothing about it being taught at 5th dan or any dan. Kata do not generally have a "dan" rank associated with them except as each ryu or kai assigns them. Funakoshi also says nothing about it being associated with a ram or goat. Jion is an Okinawan kata; maybe Korean stylists should quit borrowing and calling what they do "karate." If you are teaching/learning Jion at fifth dan, maybe you need to bootleg some more advanced kata. My brown belts do it, and do it well. I think the word you want is "interpretation," not "interpolation." Interpolation means, interestingly enough, "to insert something between other things, especially in a misleading way."

What are some more advanced kata in your style? Why is Jion not an advanced kata?

Master Reed

Why is this hyung taught at fifth dan?

 

[Master Reed]

I guess I came off a little harsh, and I was quoting from Grand Master Hwang Kee's 2nd book about Jion, His book stated age and animal of Hyung. And I forgot how every Korean Master makes stuff up. So lets drop it you win. As for Tang Soo Do 1st Dan Hyungs are Bassai, Chil Sung IL Roh Hyung, Nai Han Chi Cho Dan. 2nd Dan Hyungs are Nai Han Chi Ee Dan, Jin Do, Chil Sung Sam Roh Hyung. 3rd Dan Hyungs are Nai Han Chi Sam Dan, Ro Hi, Chil Sung Sa Ro Hyung. 4th Dan Hyungs are Kong San Kun, Sip Soo. 5th Dan Hyungs are Wan Shu, Sei Shan. 6th Dan Hyungs are Ji On, Oh Sip Sa Bo.

 

[Gene Williams]

Shito-ryu does kata from the Shuri, Tomari, and Naha tradition. Our more advanced kata would be kata like Gojushiho, Rohai, Seipai, Kururunpha, Seiuchin, Unshu, Suparimpei,Chinto (Kyan version), Hakucho, etc. Jion is a fine kata and is certainly not something you teach to juniors. I teach it at brown belt and require it on shodan tests. But, it is not as complex or subtle as the ones I mentioned above. A lot of times when I see TKD students do the Okinawan kata, they have moves in there that are not in the original Okinawan versions. The Koreans "doctored" them. That is a little bothersome. If I took the hyungs of Korean origin and took out high kicks, added sanchin stances and breathing, and put in a lot of cat stances instead of back stances, you wouldn't like it.

 

[TimoS]

Oh Sip Sa Bo means 54 steps of the Black Tiger.

Heh, korean must be a really compact language, if Bo means "steps of the black tiger" Ok, kidding aside, the name seems very similar to Gojushiho, so I guess this is the same form. I am also quite curious as to why this is a requirement for 6. dan ? Of course Tang soo do is a different system from Japanese, let alone Okinawan karate, and you do everything your own way, but is there a reason for this form to come so late ?

 

[Master Reed]

At this point any thing I say can and will be used against me but as far as I know this was done way back in the 1940's and I have no idea why.

 

[Gene Williams]

The assigning of dan levels to kata is somewhat arbitrary, especially with the higher kata. But, there are certain ones that are considered "more advanced." Jion just isn't one of those. Tim seems to think of Gojushiho as not as advanced as others, we reserve it for fourth or fifth dan. We don't really have "required kata" after godan (5th dan). That is the last rank we test for. Others considered (by Shito ryu) as advanced: Seipai, Kururunpha, Unshu, Suparimpei, Chinto (Kyan version), Hakucho, etc. No kata had a dan level assigned originally. The kyu/dan system is a fairly late development. Hope this helps.

 

[TimoS]

Tim seems to think of Gojushiho as not as advanced as others, we reserve it for fourth or fifth dan. We don't really have "required kata" after godan (5th dan). That is the last rank we test for. Others considered (by Shito ryu) as advanced: Seipai, Kururunpha, Unshu, Suparimpei, Chinto (Kyan version), Hakucho, etc.

Okay, getting off-topic from TSD, sorry about that. I guess you also have more kata than we do. Our kata list is: Kenshuho (an elementary kata developed by the founder of Shorinji ryu Renshinkan karate, soke Isamu Tamotsu), Wanshu, Ananku, Seisan, Chinto, Gojushiho, Bassai and Kushanku. Those plus Pinan 1 - 5 and Naifanchi 1 - 3

 

[rmclain]

Gojushiho is the same form as Oh Ship Sa Bo (54 steps).

I've only heard of Hwang Kee's system relating animals to these Okinawan forms.

Jeon is also known as "Jah Un" in some Korean systems, but comes from Okinawa.

Does anyone know of another system that does this?

R. McLain

 

[JWLuiza]

If you you look at TSD kata they invariably mimic the japanese interpretations, not the okinawan (e.g., Pinan 1 vs. Pinan 2 order). Hwang ki admitted as much as getting the kata from books in Japan.