havs taiji's step skills lost?

[Ninebird8]

Xue, to your first comment: as I said in my post, that was my opinion only,and the reason I say that is observational. I have no historical basis for that, just observing the hard and soft apparent movements in traditional Chen style.As far as Yang footwork, my tai ji master and grandmaster have also shown us very good and useful footwork from Yang that I have also applied to my kung fu.

 

[oxy]

However, the up and down movements described, unless I misinterpret the comments, are contrary to rooting, expressing chi, and using fa jing with silk reeling to express out through the hands.

That's kind of why I think Taiji footwork is limited precisely because of the lack of up and down movement. I speak from the LHBF perspective only. From my experience, the up and down movement does not negate any rooting, chi expression and especially fajing. Fajing in LHBF is pretty much enhanced by the up and down movements in footwork. It is precisely the incredulity of Taiji practitioners at the notion of up and down movement in footwork which gives me the impression that Taiji footwork isn't as well developed.

A last point: like the external, tai ji could not have lasted this long and be called "grand ultimate boxing" if it was grossly ineffective in fighting.

Xue Sheng seems to be the premier Taijiquan historian around here so he will probably have to correct me. I was under the impression that "Grand Ultimate Boxing" was a self-styled name and wasn't the first name given to it. I also remember that there were other practices at the time that also styled themselves as Taiji.

Amongst LHBF practitioners, LHBF is sometimes known as the Kung Fu Dictionary. I would be the first to say that this says nothing about how good LHBF actually is, just because people from within the style say it.

Like everything in nature, only the strongest fighting methodologies and species survive. This was used in warfare alongside the external arts and, in fact, I know few legit kung fu masters who also do not incorporate the footwork and connectivity of tai ji.

Just my humble observations and personal experience on tai ji footwork.

No one is saying that Taiji isn't effective or indeed some of the best examples of CMA. But that still doesn't automatically means it has the best footwork. It as adequate footwork, there's no denying it. That's all I'm trying to say.

 

[Xue Sheng]

Xue, to your first comment: as I said in my post, that was my opinion only,and the reason I say that is observational. I have no historical basis for that, just observing the hard and soft apparent movements in traditional Chen style.As far as Yang footwork, my tai ji master and grandmaster have also shown us very good and useful footwork from Yang that I have also applied to my kung fu.

No problem, all I was saying is you are not the only one, that is all.

 

[Ninebird8]

Oxy, with all due respect, I have also recently learned the Li He Bua Fa movements from a classmate who learned the complete long form form from Liang Shouyu, the father of Helen Liang, one of the best water boxing practitioners. Do you realize that this form is a combo of Tai ji, ba gua and hsing i with elements of all integrated into one beautiful, effective form and fighting system. When I stated Yang did not have many up and down movements, maybe my comments were not clear. We of course do snake creeps down, etc, but when moving in internal or external, it is essential to be rooted for that moment of contact. As a great believer in good footwork being essential to great fighting prowess, Yang tai ji helped me connect the dots in my footwork, if you will, from my kung fu practice. In fact, the footwork drills we did for our moving push hands were directly relational to the patterned foot work I learned in Ying Jow Pai eagle claw, Wudan Nine birds family style, and southern white crane as well as the Tai Ji. As a bird mover (LOL! See my external styles), it has been a great help in understanding how foot movement and fa jing can be combined to generate great focused power for a little guy like myself, who is 5" 4" and 150 lbs against much bigger opponents. The foot movement of tai ji also taught me how to move concentrically as well as linearly, and provided insight to merge offensive/defensive into a flowing combined movement. As I stated, Li He Bua Fa is a combo and incorporates the best advantages of all three major internal styles. Again, just my opinion and personal experience.

 

[ggg214]

comparing taiji's training, bagua seems more effective .

 

[Formosa Neijia]

Would it be fair to say, though, that Xingyi and Bagua has a much more developed/extensive way of training footwork? Would it also be fair to say that Taiji from any family has almost no concept of floating root (maybe except Sun family)?

I think that's a fair statement.

There's a Chinese saying: xingyi hands, taiji waist, and bagua feet.

That represents the best that each of those styles has to offer in the opinion of people that have done them all. Naturally, you won't find this saying much from lineages that claim "purity" or that frown on cross-training.

The bagua footwork is just too good to ignore. It's a significant improvement over the other two styles IMO.

Taiji excels at stationary power via waist, xingyi specializes in half-step, and bagua specializes in continuous step. The Chen Pan-ling taiji form that I do incorproates all those three in the stepping because they form a continuum of movement.

Some problems pop up in training these three. For example, the waist is not used much in half-step or continuous stepping because the power comes from the feet, not the waist. That's not really a serious problem, but it does cause taiji people that specialize in stationary movement to frown on moving step a bit. It tends to get them away from taiji's forte.