Hapkido in Tang Soo Do

exile

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I've always wondered about this as well. The fact that Choi's: A) actual time in Japan, B) from whom he studied what has never been authenticated never really concerned me. The Aikijujutsu influence on Hapkido is painfully obvious, so he would have had to have studied Aikijujutsu from SOMEONE at SOME POINT in his life. No such techniques had been practiced in Korea prior to that...at least as far as we know. Or at least, those techniques were not native to Korea.

This kind of thing illustrates perfectly one of the reasons why efforts to connect present-day MAs with ancestors in the dim past have to be viewed with extreme skepticism. The fact that we can't authenticate critical details about the source of even recent fighting systems—stuff that happened in the 20th century, in fully literate societies—stuff like the line of transmission of Hapkido, or exactly what the training practices of the Tang/Kong Soo Do kwans of the early 1950s actually consisted of—is a powerful warning about the reliability of folktales of the past which purport to derive the martial arts of Asia from the supposed visit of Bhodhidharma to the Shaolin temple sometime way back when, or the claim that this or that modern system established in the past fifty years or so can be traced to combat systems hundreds or thousands of years back in a legendary heroic age, about which we actually know nothing but which we'd like to imagine contains the seeds of current practice.

The MAs seem to be especially prone to this sort of wishful thinking. If people were more secure about their respective arts, there would probably be less hankering after some glorious unrecoverable past...
 

JT_the_Ninja

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Quite a few years ago, I trained in Ji Do Kwan in Master Cho's school in Manhattan.

The school was called the Karate Institute, even though Master Cho's uniform patch said "Tae Kwon Do" on it.

I might similarly point out that I train at C.S. Kim Karate, which nevertheless calls itself a TSD school and is headed by the current president of the International TSD Federation. As far as I know, Master Kim chose the name "C.S. Kim Karate" because in America karate is an all-purpose word for martial arts. If he'd called it "C.S. Kim Tang Soo Do School," it's less likely that, given when he started the school, people would have understood. All our patches and uniforms say Tang Soo Do (though they do also say "C.S. Kim Karate" on the backs - surrounded by the words "International Tang Soo Do Federation"). I personally don't think the name of the school means as much as the training, though.

And as to the hyung TSD owes to Okinawan karate, I think it's rather obvious that the hyung are *not* move-for-move the same. They are very, very close, though, and I always find this interesting as a way to see what other styles do with these forms, most especially what their originators do, in order to better understand the way my style teaches them.

As to HKD's Choi Yung Sul, I'd not heard of this, but it is interesting. Sounds like other stories I've heard, concerning self-proclaimed "masters" who claim they've travelled Asia and studied everywhere important. Not that I discount HKD as an art, though. From what I've seen, it's still pretty effective as a Korean equivalent/offspring of Aikido.
 

exile

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And as to the hyung TSD owes to Okinawan karate, I think it's rather obvious that the hyung are *not* move-for-move the same.

From what I've seen, JT, the range of variation is well within the bounds of the variation in the performance of a single TKD hyung as taught in different schools or by different teachers. I've seen knifehand strikes replace hammer fists and outward middle blocks replace inward middle blocks. People who've been in the game for a long time modify forms on an individual basis; I believe I've read accounts of MA masters who taught the same form somewhat differently to different cohorts of students, reflecting their changing view of the optimal move at that point. That's almost certainly particularly true of the original Okinawan practitioners who codified the forms; after all, their viewpoint was always driven by practicality and efficiency. If some modification of the instructions led to a better result, they'd act accordingly...

They are very, very close, though, and I always find this interesting as a way to see what other styles do with these forms, most especially what their originators do, in order to better understand the way my style teaches them.

This is a useful approach. Sometimes the `dialect differences' in hyung performance are very informative, especially if you can get more specific information about the teacher's thinking in making the changes...
 

Danny Reid

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As far as the TSD/Shotokan link...it's obvious. Same goes for TKD...

Take Shotokan...add a few extra kicks...change a couple techniques in the katas...and voila'...you've got TSD...

Take TSD...add a few extra kicks...change a couple techniques in the hyungs...and voila'...you've got TKD...

It's all Shotokan, guys...

Hate to break it to you...
 

exile

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As far as the TSD/Shotokan link...it's obvious. Same goes for TKD...

Take Shotokan...add a few extra kicks...change a couple techniques in the katas...and voila'...you've got TSD...

Take TSD...add a few extra kicks...change a couple techniques in the hyungs...and voila'...you've got TKD...

It's all Shotokan, guys...

Hate to break it to you...

I'm anything but heartbroken, Danny—Shotokan is a perfectly good platform to build a Korean variant on, eh? :) But you've captured the gist of things in a very concise and elegant way.

The important thing to remember is that TSD and TKD are the Korean variants and development of the `karate root stock'. It's always a matter of a few small changes in each generation and as you say, voilà—a distinctive national style. To me, it means mostly this: a lot of Shotokan guys have done a ton of bunkai analysis that we can study and steal from to suit ourselves, if we think the analyses are sound. Life's too short to keep reinventing the wheel, eh?
 

Danny Reid

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I'm anything but heartbroken, Danny—Shotokan is a perfectly good platform to build a Korean variant on, eh? :) But you've captured the gist of things in a very concise and elegant way.

The important thing to remember is that TSD and TKD are the Korean variants and development of the `karate root stock'. It's always a matter of a few small changes in each generation and as you say, voilà—a distinctive national style. To me, it means mostly this: a lot of Shotokan guys have done a ton of bunkai analysis that we can study and steal from to suit ourselves, if we think the analyses are sound. Life's too short to keep reinventing the wheel, eh?
Absolutely!!!

Besides...I take it all in good humor!

Hell...even Shotokan is a knock-off of various systems!!!
 

howard

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The fact that Choi's: A) actual time in Japan, B) from whom he studied what has never been authenticated never really concerned me. The Aikijujutsu influence on Hapkido is painfully obvious, so he would have had to have studied Aikijujutsu from SOMEONE at SOME POINT in his life.
As a student of an old style of Hapkido that is faithful to Choi's teachings, this question intrigued me to the point that I eventually sought out Daito-ryu training to try to judge for myself whether there is any link between Choi's art and Daito-ryu. Based on what I've seen firsthand, I believe like you that it is doubtless that Choi learned a form of Aikijujutsu while he was in Japan. The technical similarities between Choi's art and Daito-ryu, especially with regard to some of Choi's advanced material, are just too great to be attributed to coincidence.

It's ironic that some early Hapkido people concocted stories about Hapkido having come from Korean monks who trained in caves hundreds of years ago, while Choi himself never wavered from his account. His story was always that he learned Daito-ryu from Takeda in Japan.
 

MBuzzy

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I think it is important to remember....

True that we should not deny the heritage OR the work that has gone before and already been done with regards to the hyung and bunkai...It is also true that TSD and TKD are built on a shotokon background. But, as we have discussed in other threads, just because our heritage comes from Japan, TKD and TSD are STILL Korean arts and because they are based on Shotokon and have roots there, doesn't make them any less important, Korean, or any less viable martial arts.

(I know this is mostly preaching to the choir!)
 

exile

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I think it is important to remember....

True that we should not deny the heritage OR the work that has gone before and already been done with regards to the hyung and bunkai...It is also true that TSD and TKD are built on a shotokon background. But, as we have discussed in other threads, just because our heritage comes from Japan, TKD and TSD are STILL Korean arts and because they are based on Shotokon and have roots there, doesn't make them any less important, Korean, or any less viable martial arts.

(I know this is mostly preaching to the choir!)

There's nothing wrong with preaching to the choir, MB! What you say is very well said...
 

exile

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Danny Reid said:
Hell...even Shotokan is a knock-off of various systems!!!

For sure; in fact Okinawan karate as a whole seems to be a complex blend of indigenous Tuite techs with various Chinese systems (chuan fa especially, from what I've read). And there's an unexpected wrinkle here: according to Iain Abernethy,

many of the Minimoto samurai took Okinawan wives and remained upon the island for the rest of their days. The bujitsu of the Minimoto samurai had a large influence on the fighting methods employed by the Okinawan nobles. One part of Minimoto bujitsu that had an influence on the development of karate was the idea that all motion is essentially the same. Whether striking, grappling or wielding a weapon, the Minamoto samurai taught that all combative methods relied upon similar physical movements... the results of this combat philosophy can still be seen in modern day karate.

So it looks as though JMAs had important input into the O/CMA mix which had been bubbling away on Okinawa for quite a bit, and which gave rise ultimately to Matsumura's and Itosu's combat system. The shining new synthesis was then exported back to Japan, and from there to Korea, where new kicking techniques—I'm not talking about Olympic glitz, but, much earlier, the `open hip' style of kicking to drive the impact home with serious power—were incorporated into the mix.

As a student of an old style of Hapkido that is faithful to Choi's teachings, this question intrigued me to the point that I eventually sought out Daito-ryu training to try to judge for myself whether there is any link between Choi's art and Daito-ryu. Based on what I've seen firsthand, I believe like you that it is doubtless that Choi learned a form of Aikijujutsu while he was in Japan. The technical similarities between Choi's art and Daito-ryu, especially with regard to some of Choi's advanced material, are just too great to be attributed to coincidence.

Yes! This is the kind of detective work that really works, when approaching questions where relevant documentation is missing and will very likely never surface. Archaeologists studying the early ancestors of our species have learned a tremendous amount about the development of human culture in deep prehistory by acquiring practical stone-flaking toolmaking skills; there's no other way to go about it! Learn the craft and you can in a lot of cases see what the answers must have been, because of the technical limits that emerge from hands-on experimentation...


It's ironic that some early Hapkido people concocted stories about Hapkido having come from Korean monks who trained in caves hundreds of years ago, while Choi himself never wavered from his account. His story was always that he learned Daito-ryu from Takeda in Japan.

Everyone, in the end, wants you to believe their creation myth, where they sprang from the ground thousands of years ago in the place where they now are. You can understand it... but it does the MAs a real disservice when `charter myths' asserting one or another form of legitimacy are taken to be real history.
 

howard

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As to HKD's Choi Yung Sul, I'd not heard of this, but it is interesting... Not that I discount HKD as an art, though. From what I've seen, it's still pretty effective as a Korean equivalent/offspring of Aikido.
It's definitely effective, but I'd put it much closer to Japanese Jujutsu than to Aikido. Most modern forms of Aikido have evolved quite far from their Daito-ryu roots. On the other hand, the locking / throwing / pinning elements of Hapkido are still pretty close to their Aikijujutsu roots. None of that new-age stuff about not responding violently to your enemy... when you're attacked, you definitely respond violently in Hapkido.

Sorry if I'm hijacking a TSD thread, but so far all of the posts seem relevant to the original topic.

I should visit the TSD forum more often... you all play very nicely with each other. :)
 

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I should visit the TSD forum more often... you all play very nicely with each other. :)

Well, we have our moments, but for the most part I'd say that we're pretty good sports! :)
 
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Ian wallace

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i have seen a few classes of T.S.D and in our student hand book from our association we do have the history and a brief understanding about hapkido,
we have always been told that our self defence techniques are spawn from hapkido! thats why i asked the origanal question
 

howard

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we have always been told that our self defence techniques are spawn from hapkido! thats why i asked the origanal question
That's quite possible, and it raises an interestng question: does TSD have formal self defense techniques that are part of its ranking curriculum? Or does the teaching of self-defense in TSD vary from one organization and dojang to another?
 

zDom

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No such techniques had been practiced in Korea prior to that...at least as far as we know. Or at least, those techniques were not native to Korea.

Not true. There is no documentation, but some of the earliest practitioners had indicated there were some indigineous techniques along those lines in Korea prior to Choi.

I imagine it was one of those things along the lines of, Choi shows Student X a technique, and he remembers his grandfather doing something very similar, or some monk at a temple he visited once as a child. Probably not a comprehensive system like Choi brought with him, but odds and ends that were thrown into the mix as variations or additional techniques, perhaps.

(fwiw, ONE theory is that it was the KOREANs who brought originally brought techniques to Japan that eventually became Ju Jutsu :))

There is no doubt at all, however, that Choi's teachings made up the core of what became known as hapkido.

Not that I discount HKD as an art, though. From what I've seen, it's still pretty effective as a Korean equivalent/offspring of Aikido.

Just to clarify, hapkido is not an equivalent of Aikido (I once thought so, too; I used to describe it as "Korean Aikido.") But HKD is DEFINATELY not an OFFSPRING of Aikido.

They simply have a common root: Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu as taught by Takeda Sokaku.
 

JT_the_Ninja

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zDom: thanks for the clarification.

howard: At my school, the answer is yes. We do have several, and several more, ho sin sul techniques which we must demonstrate at tests; we start learning them from white belt upward, and start testing with them (I believe) around green/red belt. The black belt ones are the fun ones, though *evilgrin*
 
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