Hapkido in Tang Soo Do

[Ian wallace]

Hi all,
im doing a bit of searching and i was wondering if anyone knows the reason why in T.S.D we have hapkido incopreated into it???

Hope all is well

Ian Wallace

Tang Soo!!!

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

Hrm. Never heard of that; mind explaining what you mean? I mean, all martial arts will by definition incorporate each other to the extent that they all share many basic elements, and since HKD is a Korean MA like TSD, I'm not surprised if there are many similarities. I don't really know much about HKD, but if you see some direct cognate techniques, that's interesting.

 

[Ian wallace]

well in our system of T.S.D hapkido is taught as part of our self defence techiniques, is that not the case in all styles of T.S.D? becouse we are taught that T.S.D has hapkido incorpreated into it and always has for example our joint locks, pressure holds e.t.c.

What do you think?

Yours in T.S.D Ian Wallace

 

[zDom]

... becouse we are taught that T.S.D has hapkido incorpreated into it ...
What do you think?

As a hapkido practitioner, I would would prefer it if ya'll phrased it,

" ... have hapkido techniques incorporated into it ..."

or

"... techniques from/borrowed from hapkido ... "

Hapkido is an art in and of itself, not something that can simply be added into another art.

We have judo techniques in hapkido, but I would not presume to say that "hapkido has judo in it" or that I "know" judo.

But then my preferences probably don't mean squat

This is just a source of frustration for those who have put years and years of hard training into learning the art of hapkido: TKD/TSD practitioners learning a couple of wrist locks and then saying they "know hapkido, too."

 

[matt.m]

Well said.

There are a ton of borrowed techniques between the arts. However, Aikido is not like hapkido anymore than Karate is like Tae Kwon Do.

In the one steps between hapkido and tae kwon do they have similiar techniques.......however, there is no way they are the same.

That kind of stuff just gets to me a bit as well.

Sorry to rant, but it is not MMA we are talking about here.

 

[crushing]

TSD may have elements similar to HKD, but it does not contain HKD.

Given human anatomy and physiology it only makes sense that there will be some similarities between techniques and movements. These arts needn't have even borrowed from each other to develop the similar techniques. It's not like one art is going to make an armbar work by bending the elbow the way it was made to be bent.

 

[howard]

...since HKD is a Korean MA like TSD, I'm not surprised if there are many similarities.

Yes, they are both Korean arts, but neither originated in Korea.

TSD comes from Japanese / Okinawan Karate.

HKD comes from some style of Aikijujutsu, most likely Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu.

The principles of the two underlying arts are quite different.

 

[exile]

Yes, they are both Korean arts, but neither originated in Korea.

TSD comes from Japanese / Okinawan Karate.

HKD comes from some style of Aikijujutsu, most likely Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu.

The principles of the two underlying arts are quite different.

Right you are, howard—but different styles in close proximity are bound to pick up tricks from each other. Historically unrelated languages that have been spoken by adjacent poplulations living cheek-by-jowl with each other for centuries or millenia borrow sound systems and whole chunks of grammar from each other; no reason to doubt that MAs will do the same, possibly after much shorter periods of contact. The point about their guiding strategic principles being the same is right on target; but there's nothing surprising about them borrowing tactical elements from each other...

 

[Ian wallace]

woww howard your wrong there tang soo do may have the hyungs of karate but to say it originated in japan then im sorry my friend but your wrong!!

to all that took me wrong!!! then i appolagise for that!! but what i was talking about was how did tang soo do get certain techinques of hapkido into it? i know that hapkido is a separate art and a buitifull one it is!!

but what i was asking without no bad thoughts on other styles is!!! just how tang soo do had certain hapkido techniques

Do not assume, just ask becouse not all people talk clearly to what you buileve to be clear!!

 

[Makalakumu]

Ian, I'm going to assume that English isn't your second language...and if it is, then you are doing a great job communicating here. Anyway, as far as the TSD and Okinawan/Japanese connection, that is well established and you can find many other threads in the TSD forum to substantiate that.

As to the original question, Hapkido in TSD, all I can say is that the term "Hapkido" is interchangable with "Hosinshul" in many dojangs. Both of these draw on Japanese arts for the bulk of their material. This is unfortunate, because if the average tangsoodoin understood their forms, then they would not need to bastardize other arts in order to round out their curriculum.

 

[exile]

woww howard your wrong there tang soo do may have the hyungs of karate but to say it originated in japan then im sorry my friend but your wrong!!

No, Ian, he's right, and you are wrong. Tang soo do was the name given by many of the kwan founders to the art that they taught after coming back from Japan in the 1930, having studied in every case either Shotokan or Shudokan karate. The lineage of every one of the original kwans can be traced to a Japanese karate school taught by an expatriate Okinawan karateka. This much is extremely well documented, and you can check it out for yourself. The very name Tang Soo Do is a direct translation of kara te under one of its transliterations (`China hand'); the other name for the art was Kong Soo Do, which is—guess what?—the other transliteration of kara te (`Empty hand'). The founder of the Song Moo Kwan, Byung Ro Jik, called his art Tang Soo Do—karate, in Korean—through the 1940s and 1950s, and guess what Song Moo Kwan means? It's a literal translation of Shoto Kan (=`Pine tree (training) house'). The technical content of Tang Soo Do/Kong Soo Do was exactly that of Japanese karate, as attested by the Kwan founders themselves and their senior students. What did you think they were teaching, back then?

And the hyungs, literal copies or identical to the Okinawan kata Naihanchi, Tekki, and so on that are practiced in TSD, were the technical core of the training received by the Kwan founders who called their art Tang Soo Do. So when you say howard is wrong, just what are you talking about? And what, against all the extensive documentation of the technical lineage of TSD as originating in Okinawan/Japanese karate, is your evidence?

Most of the people on the TSD forum are aware of this history, which is abundantly documented and not particularly controversial. I find it rather strange that you seem to be totally unaware of any of it.

to all that took me wrong!!! then i appolagise for that!! but what i was talking about was how did tang soo do get certain techinques of hapkido into it? i know that hapkido is a separate art and a buitifull one it is!!

but what i was asking without no bad thoughts on other styles is!!! just how tang soo do had certain hapkido techniques

Do not assume, just ask becouse not all people talk clearly to what you buileve to be clear!!

Have you been reading any of the posts you've received in response to your original query? It's not clear to me that you've paid them any attention at all.

 

[Chizikunbo]

Hi all,
im doing a bit of searching and i was wondering if anyone knows the reason why in T.S.D we have hapkido incopreated into it???

Hope all is well

Ian Wallace

Tang Soo!!!

Tang Soo Do and Hapkido do not share a common lineage. I suspect the reason alot of the "Ho Shin Sool" that is taught by some in the Tang Soo Do community was simply handed down as techniques added because the true applications of hyung was not understood; as hyung alone have a very comprehensive system of greappling, throws and nerve strikes contatined within them.
Today the true understanding of hyung is beggining to surface and shed light on the actual historical nature of our art, and these types of misconceptions and outdated "add in" curriculum stuffers that are often construed as being HKD or TSD will be eliminated.
Best Wishes,
--Josh

 

[howard]

Right you are, howard—but different styles in close proximity are bound to pick up tricks from each other... there's nothing surprising about them borrowing tactical elements from each other...

Yes, I agree.

I believe it's documented that a few high-ranking people in the original, pre-TKD kwans trained in Hapkido at times under its founder, Choi Yong Sul. That would partially explain why the hoshinsul techniques of today's Korean karate-based systems resemble Hapkido.

I wasn't trying to start a war here... my major point was that the fundamental principles of Hapkido and any system based on Karate are different. I trained in Ji Do Kwan for a few years before moving to Hapkido, so I've seen both systems. Their fundamentals are very different.

Both systems are very good, but they're different. That's the basic point I'm trying to make.

Exile, thanks for the historical background. btw, the Ji Do Kwan hyung are virtually identical to Shotokan kata...

 

[JT_the_Ninja]

I personally (operative word) don't think it matters where the hyung originated; the people who compiled it all and made it TSD were Koreans. But that's another story....back onto the subject of the thread:

Even with ho sin sul, though, I'd still balk at saying we teach HKD in TSD, for the reasons everyone's stating. Anyone who claims they know HKD without having set foot inside an HKD classroom is lying.

 

[Ian wallace]

Well I can honestly put my hand up and say im surprised!!
This is the main reason I joined this chat room to learn more about the art I love, I have been years and years practicing on techniques, timing, development of angle, handwork and all the things and ways to improve my way of defence and attack.

Although I have not invested enough time about our history im learning more and more each time im on this site, I am motivated by learning! Its just a shame I work on oil rigs, as in my time off I don’t have access to the internet, but I will say thanks to all and please don’t take anything personal we are all here to learn and I guess you guys are to!!

Yours in Tang Soo Do!!

Ian Wallace

 

[mjd]

I personally (operative word) don't think it matters where the hyung originated; the people who compiled it all and made it TSD were Koreans.

I totally agree with this statement, we need to give the Koreans some credit once in a while for putting it all togeather, the history will always be tainted by those who say this is right and this is wrong.

This whole asia region of Jap..chin...okin... and others has been filed with travel, trading, wars, and yes love. To say one has not effected the other is simply unreal.

 

[exile]

we need to give the Koreans some credit once in a while for putting it all togeather, the history will always be tainted by those who say this is right and this is wrong.

Right and wrong don't come into it, mjd. We know that the katas with the names Pinan, Naihanchi, Bassai, etc., were brought to Japan by Gichin Funakoshi and other expatriate Okinawans. There was no karate in Japan before this happened; the Okinawans taught the Japanese karate, and we know exactly why the Japanese education and defense ministries encouraged training in this Okinawan art. There are deep, detailed histories of the MAs and tremendous documentation, and this is a point which is as well established as anything in history can be. We also know that these kata did not exist in Korea until the Kwan founders went to Japan to study martial arts there, and we know who they studies with. We know that they achieved dan ranks primarily in Shotokan, and also Shudokan and Goju ryu styles in particular cases. We know that when they came back to Korea, they taught these kata that they had learned—under the Korean names hyung/poomsae, which translate Japanese kata `pattern'—in the schools or Kwans they founded, where they taught the art, karate, that they had learned under the names Kong Soo Do/Tang Soo Do, both of which literally translate `karate' under two different transliterations. We know that in some cases they actually named their schools after the Japanese schools they trained in (`Song Moo Kwan' literally translates `Shoto Kan' (= `Pine Tree (Training) House). They taught Okinawan kata they learned in Japan under the Okinawan names (the Pyung-Ahn hyungs are named literally after the Okinawan Pinan katas created by Anko Itosu at the turn of the 20th century for use by Okinawan school children who were learning karate as a result of his successful bid to get the art into the Okinawan public school system). The movements in these kata are move-for-move identical to these older Okinawan kata, which themselves very likely were built at least partially on Chinese MA patterns.

This whole asia region of Jap..chin...okin... and others has been filed with travel, trading, wars, and yes love.

So what? What does this have to do with the specific history of transmission of a particular set of technical elements from one place to the other. The Europeans brought back yams and tomatos to Europe from the New World; it didn't work the other way round. Exactly what is the point of this last comment of yours?

To say one has not effected the other is simply unreal.

Who is saying that?

Throwing a series of straw men together in a post and thinking you've established some result is, um, ineffective as a way of making a point, mjd.

And that includes this nonsense that somehow, citing the well-documented history of the diffusion of karate does some disservice to the Koreans. If that were the case, you wouldn't expect to find top Korean MAists themselves presenting exactly this history in their books; but that's exactly what S. Henry Cho, in his classic 1968 textbook Taekwondo: Secrets of Korean Karate does. The origin of modern Korean striking arts in the karate that travelled from Okinawa to Japan is simply a matter of familiar historical background to Cho, one of the great masters of KMA of a previous generation. Why on earth would you assume that getting the basic facts right demeans or takes credit away from the Koreans??

 

[howard]

And that includes this nonsense that somehow, citing the well-documented history of the diffusion of karate does some disservice to the Koreans. If that were the case, you wouldn't expect to find top Korean MAists themselves presenting exactly this history in their books; but that's exactly what S. Henry Cho, in his classic 1968 textbook Taekwondo: Secrets of Korean Karate does. The origin of modern Korean striking arts in the karate that travelled from Okinawa to Japan is simply a matter of familiar historical background to Cho, one of the great masters of KMA of a previous generation...

Quite a few years ago, I trained in Ji Do Kwan in Master Cho's school in Manhattan.

The school was called the Karate Institute, even though Master Cho's uniform patch said "Tae Kwon Do" on it.

Since Hapkido was part of the original topic of this thread, it's pertinent to observe that we see a somewhat reversed situation in that art. Hapkido's founder, Choi Yong Sul, always maintained that he spent about thirty years training in Japan under Sokaku Takeda, the Japanese martial artist who popularized Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. However, there is no known documentation of this.

Seems paradoxical that many TKD people deny the Japanese heritage of their art, whereas the followers of traditional forms of Hapkido (especially those that remain faithful strictly to the teachings of Choi, rather than to the hybrid art that Ji Han Jae created) claim a Japanese heritage, but meet with a lot of scepticism.

Just some random thoughts...

 

[exile]

Quite a few years ago, I trained in Ji Do Kwan in Master Cho's school in Manhattan.

The school was called the Karate Institute, even though Master Cho's uniform patch said "Tae Kwon Do" on it.

Since Hapkido was part of the original topic of this thread, it's pertinent to observe that we see a somewhat reversed situation in that art. Hapkido's founder, Choi Yong Sul, always maintained that he spent about thirty years training in Japan under Sokaku Takeda, the Japanese martial artist who popularized Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. However, there is no known documentation of this.

Seems paradoxical that many TKD people deny the Japanese heritage of their art, whereas the followers of traditional forms of Hapkido (especially those that remain faithful strictly to the teachings of Choi, rather than to the hybrid art that Ji Han Jae created) claim a Japanese heritage, but meet with a lot of scepticism.

Just some random thoughts...

Random, but interesting! Your comments ring a particular bell which has been raised before on various MT threads: the preoccupation (maybe even obsession) of a lot of MAists with lineage and historical source issues. As you say, people either deny affiliations that are abundantly documented because they want to claim a `pure' origin for their art, or assert historical connections because they perceive the connection as a source of legitimacy. Funny, that...

It could be way worse, though, howard. Many threads on certain MT fora seem to almost always go sideways after a few posts, over this issue of who studied with whom for how long, who is the `true' inheritor of so-and-so's mantle, who is making claims to legitimacy based on false claims about their role in the development of such-and-such... we're not that badly off in the KMA fora, actually!

 

[Danny Reid]

Quite a few years ago, I trained in Ji Do Kwan in Master Cho's school in Manhattan.

The school was called the Karate Institute, even though Master Cho's uniform patch said "Tae Kwon Do" on it.

Since Hapkido was part of the original topic of this thread, it's pertinent to observe that we see a somewhat reversed situation in that art. Hapkido's founder, Choi Yong Sul, always maintained that he spent about thirty years training in Japan under Sokaku Takeda, the Japanese martial artist who popularized Daito-ryu Aikijujutsu. However, there is no known documentation of this.

Seems paradoxical that many TKD people deny the Japanese heritage of their art, whereas the followers of traditional forms of Hapkido (especially those that remain faithful strictly to the teachings of Choi, rather than to the hybrid art that Ji Han Jae created) claim a Japanese heritage, but meet with a lot of scepticism.

Just some random thoughts...

I've always wondered about this as well. The fact that Choi's: A) actual time in Japan, B) from whom he studied what has never been authenticated never really concerned me. The Aikijujutsu influence on Hapkido is painfully obvious, so he would have had to have studied Aikijujutsu from SOMEONE at SOME POINT in his life. No such techniques had been practiced in Korea prior to that...at least as far as we know. Or at least, those techniques were not native to Korea.