Ground fighting choices -- Judo or BJJ?

[vankuen]

Oh no...don't misunderstand, they were all nice guys, and really into training--but the atmosphere was just different in that way. Macho doesn't mean that they were cocky, just there was an element of machismo there that didn't exist in other BJJ schools I've visited and trained at. Hell most of the guys that night didn't even show up because there was a good UFC fight on that night! That's sorta what I'm getting at.

Personally--I would train over watching a fight--but then while I like the UFC and competition, I'm not a UFC leg humper either.

 

[D Dempsey]

I see what you mean. That probably isn't to out of the usual. It probably depends on the focus of the club and the personality of the instructor more than anything else. Good natured trash talking to your team-mates seems to be pretty prolific in most physical activities.

 

[matt.m]

I know I am starting a flaming barn burner here. However, I am a 2nd dan (Nidan) in Judo and I am here to tell you the following: Don't believe the hype.

After visiting Rodrigo Vaghi in St. L, who is a multi time world champion and 3rd dan under Rickson Gracie agreed with me that BJJ is a combat sport. It's main focus is wait till the opponent takes you down so you can begin your magic.

Yes Judo teaches a ton of ground fighting, however they are taught as followups to the throw that took their opponent down.

For instance the following techniques are an example: Floating hip throw to ground arm bar.

Rodrigo told me himself that he doesn't teach much on how to fall, nor off balance from the standing.

Whereas in arts like hapkido and judo, if you are on the ground then you are more than likely loosing.

The person who taught Helio was a student of the Japanese national champ as well as Jigoro Kano's student.

So really to me and from what I have seen of BJJ it is a watered down version of Traditional Kodokan Judo.

I will say this with certainty that in a fight, not a cage......unless we are both in gi's, there is no blue belt on the planet that will beat me.

Sorry, just my opinion.

 

[vankuen]

Well...I typically don't worry about belt rankings at all...as even in fighting arts, they don't mean much. I am a white belt in both Judo and Jujutsu, but do well against some green belts, blue belts, and brown belts. Granted I've got prior throwing and grappling experience from gung fu, so I've got some existing attributes for the tasks. Plus, I watch a lot of fights on youtube!

I know what you're saying about the history of Kodokan Judo, and "Kosen" Judo (since there really isn't such a thing), Maeda and the Gracies. Although Maeda originally introduced it to the Gracies and Kimura influenced it as well, I think the BJJ that we see today isn't necesssarily watered down version of Kodokan Judo (though that will eventually come to pass) but simply evolved from it's original source. Given it's intention and ruleset, it employes different strategy and tactics.

But I agree with you that Judoka can be just as good on the ground, but I think it mostly depends on the individual and not his or her belt.

 

[theletch1]

Here's a link to the history of BJJ. From what I can gather from reading it what we see is that it is a highly specialized form of jiu-jutsu... modified to take advantage of smaller body frames in it's infancy. Like any living art it will continue to evolve into an art with it's own rich history and it's origins will matter a little less.

As to the Judo vs BJJ question... there's a reason that a particular shoulder lock in BJJ is called a "Kimura".

 

[D Dempsey]

Here's a link to the history of BJJ. From what I can gather from reading it what we see is that it is a highly specialized form of jiu-jutsu... modified to take advantage of smaller body frames in it's infancy. Like any living art it will continue to evolve into an art with it's own rich history and it's origins will matter a little less.

As to the Judo vs BJJ question... there's a reason that a particular shoulder lock in BJJ is called a "Kimura".

I'm not sure how much of this is propaganda and how much is factual. According to Carlson Sr. the original material taught by his father was mainly stand-up grappling with a lot of the ground work coming later. The weak body thing never sat well with me either. being 140 pounds at that time wasn't really all that small especially compared to the average height and weight of the japanese from the same time period. Also one should keep in mind that the Carlos Gracie wasn't the only student of Maeda in Brazil, so there are schools of BJJ that have no lineage through the Gracie family.

 

[vankuen]

Good point. If Maeda taught others, there may been derivitives of the said judo. However there were no "specialized" styles of judo at all from what I've been reading about it's history. The Kosen Judo was merely a different rule set which allowed for more newaza techniques during competition. It wasn't a system with a different set of tools or anything.

But as far as BJJ, I've read that the Gracies were taught by Maeda, and then started to innovate on their own. Later Helio fought Kimura, and lost with Kimura using the bent arm shoulder lock--now known amongst BJJ and MMA'ers as the Kimura.

Does it matter today? Not really other than for friendly historical debate and giving credit where credit is due.

 

[D Dempsey]

Kosen Judo and BJJ have no real connection, if you look at the time tables for the start of Kosen style tournament you will see that Maeda had been long gone from japan. They both have the same root but developed independent of each other.

There is no real point in arguing about what is the best. The big three styles Judo, Sambo, and BJJ are all pretty much the exact same skill-set with slightly different strategic doctrines.
If you really want to see an interesting history, the soviet development of Sambo is a whole lot more fascinating than that of BJJ.

 

[Abbax8]

I started judo in 1967. I remember when UFC 1 happened and all the hype. Trust me, BJJ is Kodokan Judo contested under a different rule set. I have been taught the same holds, transitions and reverses as are featured in any BJJ textbook I can find, and I was taught then in a judo class before BJJ was heard of here in the USA.

Now that being said, BJJ is an excellent art to study as is judo. Also the way BJJ or Judo is taught or studied depends on the club and the teacher.

Pick one and have fun and learn!

Peace

Dennis

 

[D Dempsey]

Also the way BJJ or Judo is taught or studied depends on the club and the teacher.

Pick one and have fun and learn!

Quoted for truth.

I've been to BJJ schools that do no stand-up and judo schools that do no groundwork, but most fall somewhere between these two extremes.

 

[allenjp]

I find it interesting that "rules" are mentioned so often in discussing these styles. In my BJJ class there has never been any mention of "rules", just what position will get you choked out or your arm broken, and which one will allow you to do that to your opponent. As a matter of fact we spend a good amount of time learning to defend against strikes in different positions. And no, this is not an "MMA" class. It is a traditional Gracie Barra class with full Gis and the like. I have noticed that the "sport" aspect of martial arts is often what causes them to lose sight of their original purpose, which is combat.

For example, I have seen instructional series on sport Judo, where Ippon is acheived by someone lying on their back on top of their opponents chest. Anyone who has studied BJJ knows that this is a very good way to get yourself choked out. Also, I used to wrestle Greco-Roman in high school and while you do learn good principles about position and leverage, the "rules" in sport Greco-Roman wrestling make it impractcle as a combat art. Simply pinning your opponents shoulders on the mat does nothing to actually defeat them in a combat situation, and the pin rule eliminates the chance to learn defensive and offensive techniques from your back. I am sure that Judo can be a very effective combat art (having been thrown in similar ways in my BJJ class and experiencing the pain those throws can inflict) but IMHO the sporting and olympic aspect MAY HAVE (I am not sure having never trained in Judo) watered down its combat effectiveness somewhat.

I do realize however that many of the techniques taught as BJJ are simply borrowed from Judo or Jujutsu. The "kimura" or bent arm lock is one, as is the "straight armbar". So I am sure these techniques are just as effective no matter what the name of the place you learn them is.

Once again just MHO...

 

[Abbax8]

The immobilization holds judo are simply one part of the grappling syllabus, and what constitutes an ippon has changed over time. In the beginning, there was no time limit on holds and it was up to the referee to decide how long control equaled victory. Later it was set at 2 minutes. When I started judo it was 30 seconds, now it is 25 seconds.

As far as getting choked by laying on your opponents chest I guess you mean Tate-Shiho-Gatame. In this hold you normally control one arm, one shoulder and pin with your weight. While any hold can be broken, getting choked has never been a problem when using this hold, it is a favorite of mine as it is a submission hold if one knows how to place your arm under their shoulder.

The "rules" for randori or shiai are their to lessen injuries. In no way do they prevent a person from learning the self defense applications. Indeed, it is the free fighting with the rules in place that allow people to train against fully resisting opponents that enhance their readiness for a true self defense situation.

In some dojos, judokas will have opportunities to train against strikes and kicks, strikes with a bat or stick and even against blades or guns. They will also learn striking techniques. Of course there are also those dojo that concentrate on contests.

Many practitioners enter judo for the contest part and then after their competition years are behind them, concentrate on the rest of the syllabus. It's all good and all has its place.

Peace

Dennis

 

[allenjp]

OK,

Beleive me I am not here to bash anyone's style, I am just a little confused by the idea of ippon, even in a sporting sense. Is the goal of ippon just to hold your opponent down for a certain amount of time? If so, what are you going to do with him then? In "sport" BJJ, you must actually cause your opponent enough pain that he submits for fear that you will either choke him unconcious or break a limb or joint if he doesn't give up fast enough. Granted, there are points and judges for matches where neither one can submit the other, it just seems that this is a more effective way to hone your combat skills than simply holding your opponent in a position where he can't move for awhile.

 

[vankuen]

Ippon is scored when: A contestant with control throws the other contestant largely on his back with considerable force and speed; or a contestant holds with osaekomi-waza the other contestant, who is unable to get away for 25 seconds after the announcement of osaekomi (osaekomi to be covered later); or a contestant gives up by tapping twice or more with his hand or foot or says "matte" (I give up), generally as a result of a grappling technique, shime waza (strangle) or kansetsu-waza (armlock); or the effect of a strangle technique or arm lock is apparent to the referee.

Source: http://www.judoinfo.com/tourdesc.htm

 

[Bodhisattva]

I'd like to learn a little more about Judo and how it differs from BJJ or Jiu-jitsu.

I'm looking at studying the ground game, having been doing standup for the past 25 years or so, I figure it's about time to get good at it. I took a look at some of the Judo vids and BJJ vids on youtube and don't really see too much of a difference in things...aside from better throws in judo and perhaps more technical prowess on the ground with BJJ.

Is that about right in the most simplistic of differences?

Massive differences, but both are good.

BJJ is much better, IMO, because of the difference in the rules.

BJJ - Win by choke, joint lock (foot/ankle, knee, hip, elbow, shoulder, wrist, spine) or "out point" the man
Judo - Win by Strong throw to the backside, Pin, Choke, Elbow Lock, Shoulder Lock or "out point" your opponent.

The trouble with Judo is the focus on Pinning, and the fact that if there isn't enough action on the ground the ref will stop the fight, and stand the fighters back up.

This causes a lack of focus in most Judo classes on Ground fighting.

However, truth be known, Judo isn't a bad choice at all. Both are great. And both are a heck of a lot of fun.

 

[vankuen]

Is the goal of ippon just to hold your opponent down for a certain amount of time? If so, what are you going to do with him then?

...it just seems that this is a more effective way to hone your combat skills than simply holding your opponent in a position where he can't move for awhile.

While I completely understand your point, I thought about your question for a bit.

An answer I came up with was If you were to some reason be in a fight where you don't want to hurt the other individual and simply want to control them, for example. You can let them try their hardest to get out of the pin, and when they gas out, get all their frustrations out, you can let them up. Granted, I wouldn't do that in a bar with someone I don't know where his friends can kick my *** while I'm lying on their buddy...but you get the point.

It's like the progression of force, you only use as much force as necessary, and if stopping the aggressor by means of a pin will do it, there's no reason to choke him or break his arm, or punch and kick him to a pulp.

 

[Ybot]

While I completely understand your point, I thought about your question for a bit.

An answer I came up with was If you were to some reason be in a fight where you don't want to hurt the other individual and simply want to control them, for example. You can let them try their hardest to get out of the pin, and when they gas out, get all their frustrations out, you can let them up. Granted, I wouldn't do that in a bar with someone I don't know where his friends can kick my *** while I'm lying on their buddy...but you get the point.

It's like the progression of force, you only use as much force as necessary, and if stopping the aggressor by means of a pin will do it, there's no reason to choke him or break his arm, or punch and kick him to a pulp.

To add to your reasoning, there can be some major legal issues if you break a limb or choke someone unconscious and they have some complication (usually having to do with them hitting their head).

Also, if you really think about it, 25 seconds are a long time if the fight occurs in a public place. Hopefully there will be people there to separate you within the time of that pin.

 

[Abbax8]

Here's a link that gives the evolution of judo rules

http://www.judoinfo.com/rules2.htm

Peace

Dennis

 

[allenjp]

To add to your reasoning, there can be some major legal issues if you break a limb or choke someone unconscious and they have some complication (usually having to do with them hitting their head).

Also, if you really think about it, 25 seconds are a long time if the fight occurs in a public place. Hopefully there will be people there to separate you within the time of that pin.

Both you and vankuen have very good and valid points here. First of all I didn't know that there was also a submission component to judo. That changes things a bit. Also, although I currently train in BJJ and love every minute of it, one of the negatives I have always seen in the BJJ "realm" is the sort of macho attitude displayed by some of its practitioners and even founders. We have all I'm sure heard of the stories of Rickson Gracie and Ryan Gracie having more victories in street fights than in the ring. I don't know about the laws in Brazil but in the U.S. that kind of thing can get you into serious trouble. It is a good idea to have other options available than just permanently disabling or killing your opponent. I have never wanted to study MA to bully people around, and in my opinion, a higher percentage of BJJers study for this reason than in other arts. My instructor is very professional in this regard however, and that's why I like him.

Thanks for the thoughtful ideas.

 

[allenjp]

... You can let them try their hardest to get out of the pin, and when they gas out, get all their frustrations out, you can let them up. Granted, I wouldn't do that in a bar with someone I don't know where his friends can kick my *** while I'm lying on their buddy...

Yeah agreed, you're probably better off not getting on the ground in that situation anyway, friends to stomp you in the head, glass on the floor, beer to soil your nice clothes, things of that kind...of course I generally take it a step further and avoid bars altogether...much easier to avoid barfights that way