Grapevine Problems.

[arnisador]

By grapevine I mean that the in the mount, the person on top has wrapped both his legs under and around the legs of the person on the bottom and hooked them.

People are using this against me with some success, but when I use it I find I'm unbalanced and can be rolled over. I asked my instructor for pointers after class today and he gave me a few, but does anyone else have any tips for using this technique? There's something I'm just not getting about it.

 

[pknox]

Just at first glance, but I'm thinking make your base wider...spread your legs as far apart as you find comfortable, and try to keep your upper body on top of him (say controlling the biceps), leaning a bit forward, but with your hips back. This is a pretty stable position, and should give you some time, and make you less prone to being "rolled." With some beginners, they are concentrating so much on the legwork that they leave themselves open for a choke -- keep that in mind and take it if you can get it. Also, be aware that he may roll you, and if he does, be prepared to go with the roll, continuing the momentum -- you should then regain the mount.

Alternatively, see if his ankles are vulnerable -- if you have the chance to apply a heel hook or an ankle lock, that should dissuade him enough to let go.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by pknox
Just at first glance, but I'm thinking make your base wider...spread your legs as far apart as you find comfortable

I think I wasn't clear--I'm trying to get this very specific technique--the grapevine--to work, and it doesn't allow for a wide base. My legs have to wrap around his legs, hooking behind his knees or calves (my instructor recommends the backs of the knees).

Alternatively, see if his ankles are vulnerable -- if you have the chance to apply a heel hook or an ankle lock, that should dissuade him enough to let go.

At this level my BJJ instructor doesn't let us use ankle locks, but again it wouldn't be feasible from the position I'm talking about.

 

[pknox]

Oh. From the way I read it, I thought you were trying to defend against a grapevine. I guess it must be time for me to get some sleep, eh?

 

[JDenz]

control the head. It is hard to bridge or umpa if you are controling the guys head.

 

[arnisador]

With using both my legs to grapewine and controlling the head with an arm, I'll only have one arm to brace against a roll if he does get something going. But, I'll try it--I do like controlling the head.

 

[JDenz]

What I do is control the head with one arm and put my head on that side so I can stop a little roll with my head. If you are solid on controling the head you should be all right, of course if he works a leg free you have to adjust, and if he is good he is going to trap that arm with his head.

 

[Kyle]

I'm trying to get this very specific technique--the grapevine--to work, and it doesn't allow for a wide base.

Actually, that's exactly what you want to do.

- Hook the back of your heels at the bend of his knee.

- Pull your heels to your butt.

- Spread your knees wide.

- Drive your hips into their stomach.

- Control his head and an arm.

Let me know how it goes.

- Kyle

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Kyle
- Pull your heels to your butt.

- Spread your knees wide.

This is helpful--I wasn't doing the latter and wasn't placing much emphasis on the former. I have been doing the other things you mention (or at least, trying to do them). The wide knees may help me feel more stable.

 

[Old Tiger]

Originally posted by Kyle
A

- Pull your heels to your butt.

Arny, in PGC we call this "heeling to". Breaking the grapes or grapevine is relatively easy for the person on the bottom to do. If you struggle to maintain the grapes you are wasting energy and compromising your balance. As soon as your opponent starts to straighten his legs or work them free bring your heels together toward your butt, as Kyle suggests, and control his hips with your own. Hip control cannot be emphasized enough. While heeled to you can shift your hips to counter his efforts to roll or bridge. A good drill is to work with a willing partner by assuming the top saddle position (BJJ mount), heel to, put your hands behind your back and have your partner try to bridge. You will develop sensitivity and condition the muscles in your body necessary to maintain control in this postion. When this is second nature you can begin to explore the multitude of submissions and hooks available to you in this position.

 

[arnisador]

Originally posted by Old Tiger
Breaking the grapes or grapevine is relatively easy for the person on the bottom to do.

Ah, it's not just me then! I've been using Kyle's tips and also getting advice from my instructor and have been having more success but i still don't feel all that in control in this position unless I really outweigh the person--and even then, as you suggest, it doesn't seem all that hard for them to break their legs free.

I can't see why "heeling to" provides such benefits? It ensures that you are working from your knees?

 

[Andrew Green]

Their are different ways to use a grapevine on top.

The most obvious is to kcik the other guts feet out, drive your hips down into him and take away his ability to bridge. Not a position you generally hold, but at the right time can be useful for breaking him down.

Another thing is to use the hooks to hold yourself on him when he is trying to roll. So if he is trying to roll to your right you can use your left hook to hold yourself on him and prevent this.

You can also hook the legs and pull them up tight, it is then possible to get a few leg locks, and mess with his position to work the arms.

The key to using hooks is not to just put them in and stay their, it's a transition to other things, or a way to keep balance.