Gracie matches and the UFC

Discussion in 'The Competitive Edge' started by PhotonGuy, May 18, 2015.

  1. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    Art Davie started the UFC. He was originally calling it The War of the Worlds. The idea stemmed from a question constantly asked back in my time, "Who would win, a boxer or a wrestler?"

    The venue they found was Denver Colorado. First fighter Art Davie got to sign was a Denver home town hero, Pat Smith, who had just won the Sabaki Challenge. Then he ran into a problem, people he asked didn't want to fight when they heard the rules - which were pretty much no rules.

    Art Davie then took out quarter page ads in Black Belt Magazine, Inside Karate and Inside Kung Fu touting a 50,000 dollar prize for a full contact, no holds barred tournament.First guy who called was Keven Rossier, a WKA champion kickboxer (if you watch the first UFC he's a fat, out of shape brawler, but he was a WKA champ)

    Second guy they got was Ken Shamrock. Art Davie called him after learning about his fight history in Japan. Shamrock said yes right away.

    Art Davie called Ernesto Hoost next, but he had a conflicting fight card when UFC1 was scheduled, Hoost gave him Gerard Gordeau's name and Gordeau, who would fight anyone, anywhere, said "sure."

    Davie reached out to Benny the Jet, who wanted no part of it, saying he was a professional and the other guys weren't in his class."

    Art Davie wanted a boxer in the mix so he called Joe Frazier's gym in Philly. Nobody was interested. The only boxers he could find who were interested were Leon Spinks and Bonecrusher Smith, both of whom wanted an appearance fee of a hundred thousand bucks. (outside the fifty grand to the winner) Davie enentually got Art Jameson, a cruiser weight with a 29 and 5 record.

    Davie called John Jacques from the American Sumo association and landed Telia Tuli. (cost Davie asix thousand appearance fee)

    The ONLY fighter Rorian Gracie picked was Royce Gracie, much to Art Davies shock. He expected Rorian to pick Rickson as the fighter to represent the Gracies. Anytime Davie mentioned what fighters he was contacting, Rorian replied in the same way, "I don't care, get whoever you want."

    That's the way it was, guys.
     
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  2. Brian R. VanCise

    Brian R. VanCise MT Moderator Staff Member

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    One thing is for sure Buka that was a landmark event and changed perceptions on martial training!
     
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  3. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    It wasn't him. It was some European guy, if I remember right, Sambo was his background.
     
  4. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    I don't think it would have changed much of the outcome either.

    But, as I said. The environment was set up by the Gracies to favor their style of grappling. Padded ring, small enclosure to prevent lots of movement. This is one of the complaints that many strikers had in the early UFC's.
     
  5. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    I have heard other stories by others as well. It was not known until later that Rorion helped put together the early UFC. By then, there were stories of people who had striking/grappling experience that were saying that they were turned down by Art Davie. Which story sounds better for your marketing? That you took on ALL people who wanted to be in it, or that applicants were screened to highlight GJJ? As with all things, the truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Even if nothing else, the Gracies knew ahead of time everyone in the competition and were able to strategize their approach. Even Royce did an early interview talking about why he chose to wear the gi and that the people in the UFC weren't familiar with it and he could use it against them like he did Shamrock.

    The Gracies are VERY good at marketing and sold the American public some stuff that is still believed today. One of their "marketing" things was how Rickson Gracie was 400-0, then suddenly a video goes onto the internet of Rickson losing in a Sambo match to Ron Tripp. The Gracie's immediately started saying that Rickson didn't know the rules etc. even though he had competed in Sambo matches before.

    The Gracies would have you believe that they are the source of BJJ and that all other lineages came through them via Carlos/Helio Gracie. This is also false. In fact, there are other Brazilians that learned JJJ and modified it close to the way the Gracies had. If you look at the early Gracie curriculum, the self-defense portion looks like any other TMA. Rolls was the Gracie that revised the art into more of what we see today by training with Sambo and Wrestlers adding wrestling takedowns and leg/ankle locks. Rolls was Rickson's main influence.
     
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  6. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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  7. Buka

    Buka Grandmaster

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    "I can't remember his name, but there was supposedly someone very well versed in both striking and grappling that attempted to enter the first UFC and was not considered due to the fact that he might have been able to beat Royce."

    Nah. The problerm Art Davies had with the first UFC show was finding fighters. He sent letters and phone calls out to everyone, and ran ads in every Martial magazine that mattered. Back then, as well as now for that matter, a lot of Martial Arts guys talk a good fight. Plus, the rules were a shock to everyone. No holds barred? No judges? People just didn't want to fight. Can't say I blame them.

    And a lot of folks didn't think this event was actually going to take place. Art Davies contacted Dan Gable by phone message and letter, and never got a reply. For those younger guys, look him up. Maybe the best wrestler there ever was. NOBODY got turned down, heck, they couldn't find guys who would step up and agree to such no-rules madness.
     
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  8. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Senior Master

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    That depends. In a wrestling match its good to turn on your front while on the mat as being on your back is the last position you want to be in because that's how you get pinned. As for being choked out from behind that's not a problem since choking isn't allowed in wrestling. What's good or bad in a fight depends on the rules.
     
  9. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob 3rd Black Belt

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    I think the statement in your first Paragraph is true. Of those who practice martial arts as a sport, basically trying to out-react what they are accustomed to seeing in front of them. I think the correct way for a striker to approach the ground fighting thread is to batter the grappler with strikes just as you say. But to say that ground fighting or grappling is not seriously considered would be a failure of any traditional martial artist.
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    I definitely agree that the Gracie's made a huge contribution by presenting the challenge of the BJJ stylist. Excellent reality testing, IMO. HOWEVER, the serious traditional martial artist would not, imo, need the Gracie's example. Traditional martial arts as a whole was always designed to handle all kinds of physical threats. The loss is in the understanding on how traditional martial arts addresses the issue.
     
  10. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob 3rd Black Belt

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    Although I just posted that the Gracie's made an invaluable contribution to MMA and added the grappling threat as excellent reality testing in a full contact environment, I would also say what the Gracie's really excelled at was MARKETING.
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    My position, based on my own training & consultation with traditional martial artists in my local, is that the potency of the Gracie's and their BJJ is way over-rated. The myth of the striker being typically vulnerable to the closing-the-distance gambits promoted by the Gracie's, is by traditional martial arts standards, HOGWASH. IMO and by my experience.
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    See clip below of very recent MMA bout:

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    Here we see the Gracie use of boxing footwork retreat evasion (combined with some turning head movement) along with jabbing like feints meant to distract or ward off the striking opponent....TOTALLY USELESS.
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    The striker opponent uses a classic boxing gambit of lunging forward and throwing a long overhand right which out distances Gracie's reactive evasion tactic & head movement, completely overpowering the jabbing ward off by Gracie.
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    You'll never convince me that the standard tactic used by Gracie's opponent is some newly- learned boxing tactic that came along only after the Gracie's prevailed in the early UFC....
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2015
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  11. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob 3rd Black Belt

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    The Gracie's evolution of BJJ as practical grappling style is great. A watershed for MMA
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    Did Gracie BJJ ever eclipse the competent traditional karate stylist? Never.
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    And Machida's loss to Luke Rockhold is the perfect illustration of what I am advocating.
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2015
  12. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob 3rd Black Belt

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    Oh, and big change from those Gracie demo vids that MT posters put up to contradict my position. Gracie striker opponent is not walking around with his hands down, passively waiting for the Gracie BJJ stylist to run him over.... Nor is he completely intimidated by the threat of a takedown or put off by those Gracie Jab / Feints. Get Real is right.....
     
    Last edited: May 23, 2015
  13. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob 3rd Black Belt

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    I took the part of your quote I can agree with. Rousey is a world class athlete & dedicated judo stylist, with Olympic credentials. It's not grappling that she's forcing to be re-evaluated, it's the very, very steep climb required to attain her level of skill.
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    IMO, the female athletes we have in the UFC are just not up to the task. They just don't have her prodigy genetics plus degree of training. Rousey is a formidable striker by MMA standards. Boxing experts may disagree, but like K-Man complained about the average Shotokan karateka, how many professional boxers do we see stepping up to take on R. Rousey?
     
  14. Hanzou

    Hanzou Senior Master

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    And yet 20+ years later no traditional martial arts has stepped to the plate to prove that we've been worshipping the wrong gods.

    The problem with adhering to tradition is that human being come up with new innovations all the time. We're an inventive and adaptive species. To say that some ancient fighting art has some sort of answer for anything that can come at it is simply nonsense. Your traditional art was created for a specific time and a specific place. It was not created for the modern era, where various types of fighting knowledge is shared at a breakneck pace, or where you encounter people from a variety of backgrounds and countries.

    Its like saying I got it wrong with my Mercedes E250, and that I'd be better off driving a Model T to work everyday.
     
  15. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob 3rd Black Belt

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    That's a good argument, yet a purely rhetorical one.

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    Now that is purely rhetorical. And over-generalized statement that is completely vague. And of course, the hinge is defining what "traditional" means.
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    Like the scientific discoveries of a hundred years ago are automatically outdated. The laws of Calculus don't work in 2015... My answer is rhetorical, yet exactly points out the complete absence of any substantiation in your premise = conclusion argument. Great for keeping discussions going NOWHERE. Oh well, it's a blog...

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    Right....zzzzz
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2015
  16. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob 3rd Black Belt

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    A better post would have been confirming how the 'great' Gracie competitor experienced massive fail against rudimentary MMA striking gambit. Too much too ask when my content is involved, apparently.....
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    I'm tempted to post a 1-step illustration of how to deal with the MMA striker who bowled Gracie over. I too afraid I'll be met with, 1-steps are outdated, 1-steps are kihon & don't work in real fighting, 1-steps are a fixed pattern and aren't "alive," only actual sparring trains you to fight, the Japanese karates have moved too far away from Okinawan karate to be effective in self defense, 1 steps lack "pressure testing," tradition is not enough, etc., etc, etc.
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    One thing is for sure. All that Gracie expertise which has more than 2 decades to prove itself in MMA and to evolve as well--underwent massive fail against a standard MMA striking assault employing a single strike. So what do I know?
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2015
  17. ShotoNoob

    ShotoNoob 3rd Black Belt

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    MATT THORTON VS. K-MAN / MY DREAM MMA MATCH.
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    For the TMA skeptics, here's a great protagonist. Great rhetoric. Great half truths. Great proponent of BJJ, etc. Hey K-Man, there is no such thing as an advanced technique--according to Matt Thornton. Of course in a sense this is true. Then again, only half-true. And are we talking concepts, principles, tactics, techniques? This kind of vague stuff with unchallenged premises then leading to absolute conclusions, including what the Gracie marketing arguments used, is true but again half true. Enjoy a true spin master with a solid following.

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    In a nutshell, Thorton espouses you learn the physical skill of basics and essentially spar over &over & over against resisting opponents until you get very good athletically. He really believes that only actual athletic contact can one prepare for real fighting skill wise. Hence the kung fu guy who never trains against against the BJJ guy, the kung fu guy has no clue of what to do. the kung fu guy is completely stuck in "kungfu" land fighting against other kung fu land opponents and that's all he can react to.... And Matt Thorton says he has thousands of e-mails from kungfu-land practitioners who confirm their failure just as Matt Thorton claims.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2015
  18. Kenpoguy123

    Kenpoguy123 Purple Belt

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    I know this is a very old post and this fight hadnt happened when it was posted but holly holm vs ronda rousey. Holm a former boxing and kickboxing world champion destroyed rousey and rousey had her on he ground a few times and couldn't do anything with it
     
  19. Hanzou

    Hanzou Senior Master

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    Because Holly Holm trained specifically to shut down Rousey's grappling style. It's not like Holm came off the street with zero grappling training and dismantled Rousey. She spent hours and hours with expert grappling coaches methodically dissecting Rousey's Judo technique, and learning how best to negate her grappling advantage and utilize her striking advantage.

    Rousey on the other hand had a pretty shoddy boxing coach.
     
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  20. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

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    So… what you're saying is… Holm trained in "anti-grappling"…? And it beat a grappler?

    Okay, I'm shocked… ha!
     

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