Grabbing with the index finger sticking out

[Chris Parker]

For us, though, it comes (at least in part) from the spiritual teachings of the Kukishin traditions. In those, it's taught that the index finger, as the extension of the limb holding the weapon, is pointed to direct the Ki. This, from what I understand, is similar to some of the concepts in Hapkido and the way they work as well. In contrast, the Hakuun-related systems (Gyokko, Koto, Togakure) focus the Ki through the thumbs, with many kamae pointing them towards the heavens, created a connection between earth (where you are standing), man (yourself in kamae) and heaven (where the ki is directed - Ten Chi Jin.....).

Out of interest, Bruno, you start with the finger pointing, and then curl it in? A lot of swordsmanship I've gone through actually does the opposite, with the finger being pointed more through the cut, as that tightens the last few fingers, giving you a stronger, tighter grip as you impact the target, forming an integral part of te no uchi. I've heard it said that if you point the finger as you cut, it's impossible to lose your grip on the weapon. That said, Bojutsu tends to start with the finger pointed, although it seems to be kept out throughout the action of striking, in order to again get the proper mechanics for striking (in your grip).

 

[Bruno@MT]

Bear in mind that I have absolutely no qualification in biken.
However, from what I understood, we start with fingers pointing out, and right before the strike connects, the fingers are curled in. Similar with Bo and Hanbo. My understanding may be incorrect of course. I always assumed that the reason for curling them inside is to prevent them from being hit by the weapon of the opponent

I think this is visible in the various genbukan clips that are floating around on youtube.

 

[Chris Parker]

Personally, I've never really gone for the "well, they'd be a target" argument. If your opponent is close enough to take your finger with a weapon (typically sword here), then they're close enough to take your wrist, and actually do some effective damage. The finger just isn't a viable enough target, nor is it far enough removed from others that are. For me, it's always been more about the correct te no uchi and gripping methods.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Not as an actual target, but more as a consequence of one weapon sliding alongside the other. I've heard an eye witness account of someone losing an index finger that way, because he kept it straight instead of curling it in.

 

[Empty Hands]

Personally, I've never really gone for the "well, they'd be a target" argument. If your opponent is close enough to take your finger with a weapon (typically sword here), then they're close enough to take your wrist, and actually do some effective damage. The finger just isn't a viable enough target, nor is it far enough removed from others that are. For me, it's always been more about the correct te no uchi and gripping methods.

That may well be true for swords and staves (keeping in mind Bruno's story) but the initial discussion centered around empty handed grabs.

 

[Disco]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmx1rGGwdWI&feature=related

While most of the demo on Hapkido move to fast to actually see what position the hand/finger is in, this offered video does have a couple of slow scenes that you can readily see the hand/fingers. Watch and make your on assessment..............

 

[dortiz]

By opening that finger you expose the inside of that knuckle and its aligned with your arm. Like punching with a straight fist. Besdides the leverage it also creates a big knob that digs in to the UKE.
Now as you get better you clearly dont need to expose the finger as much. You learn to focus on the hand position.
Guys if you are not taught this you are not being taught Hapkido...sorry.

 

[Touch Of Death]

By opening that finger you expose the inside of that knuckle and its aligned with your arm. Like punching with a straight fist. Besdides the leverage it also creates a big knob that digs in to the UKE.
Now as you get better you clearly dont need to expose the finger as much. You learn to focus on the hand position.
Guys if you are not taught this you are not being taught Hapkido...sorry.

A full grab splits your focus.
Sean

 

[dortiz]

Are you Sean B. Sir?

 

[Touch Of Death]

Are you Sean B. Sir?

That would be a no. I'm Sean W. :ultracool
Sean

 

[Chris Parker]

That may well be true for swords and staves (keeping in mind Bruno's story) but the initial discussion centered around empty handed grabs.

Very true, my post was more as an answer to Bruno's there. However I started with one of our traditions which as a "spiritual" reason for this finger pointing, as a method for directing energy. As I have heard this pointed finger refered to by Hapkido practitioners as a "Ki finger", would that be a concept used in the Hapkido reasoning? Directing the energy "through" the grab, or limb control (for the record, some of our other traditions do this with the thumbs, pointing them the way you want the energy to go).

 

[dortiz]

Two Seans in Washington doing Hapkido : )