Goal Setting: Belts, Skill, Status, Competitiveness, Other?

[Fungus]

He asked Philosophy to search, but again, unsuccessfully. (He sent somebody else, too, but I can't remember who, but hey failed as well.) But then, unexpectedly, Nowhere showed up and had the black pearl! He was neither asked, nor even looked for it, but nevertheless, he found the treasure.

Sometimes becoming overly concerned with goals can interfere with one's natural process as we can get blinded by the target.

I share these views.

For me this is all a "special case" of asking the right questions, which is related to updating your map as you walk. The map tend not to be static but is valid often just for your next step.

This is a classical phycists joke, on an analogous theme

"Two theoretical physicists are lost at the top of a mountain. Theoretical physicist No 1 pulls out a map and peruses it for a while. Then he turns to theoretical physicist No 2 and says: "Hey, I've figured it out. I know where we are."
"Where are we then?"
"Do you see that mountain over there?"
"Yes."
"Well… THAT'S where we are."

 

[Oily Dragon]

ANOTHER CORRECTION: The book was The Way of Chuang Tzu. Amazingly, I remembered the translator/editor? of my copy, a paperback version of the one pictured below: Father Thomas Merton, a man of some repute according to Wikipedia - Monk and scholar in Asian religion and spirituality. I can't comment on if the U. of Sao Paulo is more accurate than Father Merton's compilation. Please note you referred to this particular story as a "myth," and like most myths various versions can be found, yet usually conveying the same essential message.

If you want to take a priest's spiritualist, mystic version over critical academic history, be my guest dude. You'll get Catholic tinged superficial glimpse of Daoist thought, and very little of the grand scheme.

Because remember that's what Catholic priests in Asia did, they replace Daoist ideas with the Bible. They whitewash it, replacing Chinese terms with their own dumbed down ideals.

But as far as "message" just read the first couple of pages of the PDF. Did you find the actual names of the three people tasked? They aren't "science" or "philosophy". That is BS Merton added.

You're basically taking a grand, seminal figure in all of Chinese philosophy, and reducing it to some sort of blunt insult against science and philosophy, because a Catholic missionary decided to get interpretative with something that didn't need it.

Seriously, pick up a better book.

 

[Oily Dragon]

And just to punctuate this point, what are the two greatest critiques of the Catholic God?

Science and philosophy.

 

[Buka]

I agree that these statements are true, but, Gyakuto, you took my post WAAAY too literally. Of course, a certain amount of goal setting is necessary. My opening line was, "I'm not much of a goal setter." When I drive, my goal is to get where I'm going and not to get killed on the road (something increasingly difficult these days of unaware drivers). When I started a business, I figured out overhead and how much I wanted to net to live a certain lifestyle, thus setting a goal of $/monthly gross revenue.

I attended a high-level sales/motivation seminar for one particular job I had, and thought I'd set a goal of owning a boat as part of an exercise. Many years and jobs later I had a lakefront house with a private dock... and a boat! But the boat was not a result of that long-ago hypothetical forgotten goal, but rather taking advantage of where I found myself at that time. May have been a subliminal goal from 30 yrs prior, but certainly not a driving force that guided my life choices.

I had the highest grade in my college Astronomy class going into the final, after which I ended up with the second highest grade in the class, as my professor informed me (with a friendly smirk). Didn't bother me in the least. Getting the highest (or second highest) grade wasn't even remotely a goal. I just did what I did and let the chips fall as they may. I graduated cum laude, but that wasn't a goal either. I didn't even know it was a thing.

Another job I had was as a speaker where I addressed about 10,000 high school seniors during my stint (a company record that I did not seek. The main topic? GOAL SETTING. So, I'm well familiar with the subject, thank you.

The point of my original post was that, for me, external motivation and conscious goal setting is not what drives me, especially in MA. Sometimes becoming overly concerned with goals can interfere with one's natural process as we can get blinded by the target.

And just to punctuate this point, what are the two greatest critiques of the Catholic God?

Science and philosophy.

I know what the critiques were growing up in Boston. “Why does he allow the clergy to keep raping the children?”

Truth is often times harsh.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Maybe we should stop now.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Maybe we should stop now.

No.

Just take a step back.

2024 is the year of dancing.

I propose we discuss Wing Chun, and it's role in dance.

 

[isshinryuronin]

If you want to take a priest's spiritualist, mystic version over critical academic history, be my guest dude. You'll get Catholic tinged superficial glimpse of Daoist thought, and very little of the grand scheme.

Because remember that's what Catholic priests in Asia did, they replace Daoist ideas with the Bible. They whitewash it, replacing Chinese terms with their own dumbed down ideals.

But as far as "message" just read the first couple of pages of the PDF. Did you find the actual names of the three people tasked? They aren't "science" or "philosophy". That is BS Merton added.

You're basically taking a grand, seminal figure in all of Chinese philosophy, and reducing it to some sort of blunt insult against science and philosophy, because a Catholic missionary decided to get interpretative with something that didn't need it.

Seriously, pick up a better book.

Wow! You seem to be a man on a mission! I'm sure you'd agree that the bible has many versions; various chapters and books being added or removed, revised or censored from being included at all over its 2000-year history. Not to mention the X factor inherent in translating. I've read that even native Chinese speakers have difficulty translating old Classical Chinese. I believe this is now accepted by most all biblical scholars and accepted as fact.

The writings attributed to Chuang Tzu are at least that old. On top of that, they were not written as religious dogma, but more as mythical parables conveying a lesson (not to say the bible doesn't). Heck, even MA texts, only a couple of hundred or less years old exhibit similar variations.

I did read the PDF you supplied. That version named Knowledge rather than Science and Shapelessness rather than Nothingness or Void. Even taken literally, they can be seen as equivalent terms, can they not? The difficulties in translation and personal preference can certainly account for such minor differences. I think most would agree. You are being overly anal by seizing on this as a basis for your criticism. You are missing the forest for the trees.

The forest being the message (at least one of them) that empirical knowledge and goal-centric action does not always provide the answers to everything. As in MA, reading about techniques or analyzing them via physics will not help much in actual execution of them. Sometimes "getting it" just comes to you in its own time, just as the pearl came to Nothingness/Shapelessness. Some concepts and techniques took me 30 years to get. Trying too hard can make it take longer. Once in a while, the less you do the more will get done. This certainly applies in your case.

I think it's helpful to not get obsessed on the details of a single tree but to see the forest as a whole. "See far things close, and close things far away." Take in the big picture, the essence of the message. I thought the message was a good one. I'm sorry I made you so uptight. Maybe a nice Taoist myth will help you unwind and balance your yin and yang.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Good thread start!

I was on-and-off with goals in MA. I started just wanting to learn, gain some skills, and do something that felt cool (though I wouldn't have worded it that way at the time). I'm personally driven by the desire to be good at what I spend time on, so my pursuit was always trying to get good at specific skills. What I was driven toward varied over time. Sometimes I wanted to develop power (especially in strikes). I went through a time when smoothness was my objective. For a while it was precision (in strikes and other techniques). Later it was fluidity (being able to move from one technique to the next as soon as I felt the technique wasn't optimal).

Later, my focus went to really understanding what I was doing. That overlapped with the start of my teaching, when I also gained the objective of being able to teach better.

Rarely did I have my eye on a given rank. Brown was a goal for me as I got close to it, because that meant student teaching. Shodan - instructor rank in the NGAA - became a goal, because I wanted to be in the inner circle (I already was, but not formally).

Later, I wanted to improve the efficacy of the system and efficiency of my teaching, so I focused on curriculum and organization for a while. During that time, I also focused on better understanding what real application should be (so my curriculum could deliver that).

I never had what I'd refer to as a long-term goal (though I did have some long-term desires - they were just subjugated to other life concerns). I just focused on what interested me and what motivated me (I'm well motivated by being one of the best within a group - that's true of me at work, as well). Most of the time, I just enjoyed the flow of just going through the curriculum and ranks, focusing on whatever most interested me at the time.

I've never been big on competition in the sense of tournaments. My "competition" was trying to be the best (or at least among the best) of those around me. Even when I played sports, I liked the play enough that I wanted to play. I wanted to personally play well, but the gathering and play was more important to me. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed winning more than losing, but I mostly wanted to play. If the other team showed up without enough people and had to forfeit, I'd offer to play on their side so we could still play, though the game wouldn't count. I don't think I'd have done especially well at MA competition, because I doubt I'd be willing to go all-out. I always was willing to lose rather than cause injury, even in hard sparring. My training (which is how I view competition) was never worth someone getting hurt, if I had a choice. Me getting hurt (when I was younger) was of no importance to me, so I could train hard, but I always put the "hard" on myself. I wish I had competed in MA - I'd likely have gotten a lot out of playing with a wider group - but I never did.

 

[Buka]

Good thread start!

I was on-and-off with goals in MA. I started just wanting to learn, gain some skills, and do something that felt cool (though I wouldn't have worded it that way at the time). I'm personally driven by the desire to be good at what I spend time on, so my pursuit was always trying to get good at specific skills. What I was driven toward varied over time. Sometimes I wanted to develop power (especially in strikes). I went through a time when smoothness was my objective. For a while it was precision (in strikes and other techniques). Later it was fluidity (being able to move from one technique to the next as soon as I felt the technique wasn't optimal).

Later, my focus went to really understanding what I was doing. That overlapped with the start of my teaching, when I also gained the objective of being able to teach better.

Rarely did I have my eye on a given rank. Brown was a goal for me as I got close to it, because that meant student teaching. Shodan - instructor rank in the NGAA - became a goal, because I wanted to be in the inner circle (I already was, but not formally).

Later, I wanted to improve the efficacy of the system and efficiency of my teaching, so I focused on curriculum and organization for a while. During that time, I also focused on better understanding what real application should be (so my curriculum could deliver that).

I never had what I'd refer to as a long-term goal (though I did have some long-term desires - they were just subjugated to other life concerns). I just focused on what interested me and what motivated me (I'm well motivated by being one of the best within a group - that's true of me at work, as well). Most of the time, I just enjoyed the flow of just going through the curriculum and ranks, focusing on whatever most interested me at the time.

I've never been big on competition in the sense of tournaments. My "competition" was trying to be the best (or at least among the best) of those around me. Even when I played sports, I liked the play enough that I wanted to play. I wanted to personally play well, but the gathering and play was more important to me. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed winning more than losing, but I mostly wanted to play. If the other team showed up without enough people and had to forfeit, I'd offer to play on their side so we could still play, though the game wouldn't count. I don't think I'd have done especially well at MA competition, because I doubt I'd be willing to go all-out. I always was willing to lose rather than cause injury, even in hard sparring. My training (which is how I view competition) was never worth someone getting hurt, if I had a choice. Me getting hurt (when I was younger) was of no importance to me, so I could train hard, but I always put the "hard" on myself. I wish I had competed in MA - I'd likely have gotten a lot out of playing with a wider group - but I never did.

I think you would have done fine in competition. I never went all-out, unless someone went that way first. Which wasn’t very often.

One of the things I learned through training Martial Arts was every other endeavor I did got much better from MA. All sports I played, health, patience, everything.

I never had a goal in Martial Arts, just a junkies need to do it. I’m forever thankful for that.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I never went all-out,

In tournament, when opportunity arrived, I would tell myself, "Now is time to decide winning or losing - If I have to die, let me die right now". I then gave myself 120% out. It always worked pretty successful for me. Sometimes I felt the reason I could win just because I gave all-out, but my opponent didn't.

 

[Holmejr]

Faith, family, country, work, fun. I suppose I had goals in each facet of my life. I didn’t write them down like a business plan, but I did consciously make the decision to be a good Christian example. Treat others well, be diligent in my tasks, strive for what I call realistic perfection. When I found my current school I connected with it enough to actually set the goal of reaching instructor level. I was 60 years old when I started. I believe I set a good example to others in class. I strive to be the best student in knowledge, performance, helpfulness and humility. That my MA goal.

For oily dragon

Jesus Washing the Feet of the Apostles, by Chinese painter Lu Hongnian

 

[Fungus]

Jesus Washing the Feet of the Apostles, by Chinese painter Lu Hongnian

And it has since then been part of dojo etiquette...

 

[HighKick]

"Where do you see yourself in five years?"

Dude, I don't know. Ask me in five years.

"If you don't set goals, you'll never get anywhere."

OK with me. I don't have anywhere to get.

People have been telling me to set personal and professional goals all my life. Here at the end of my time employed, I look back and see success, accomplishments, but they just organically happened. And I still don't have a 'career' and have never felt the lack. I succeed because I'm good at what I do, I like what I do, I get along with people and communicate well, and I've been lucky.

I continue to train in martial arts because I enjoy it. I most likely will not receive any more promotions and that is absolutely fine, I haven't done anything to deserve another. My martial arts goal? Keep training, I guess. Someday soon, I won't be able to. Maybe I'll write a book then.

I have to say it is refreshing to resolve myself to the fact that I will likely never rank up anymore. And wow, how weird it is to me that I am fine with that.
Being a high functioning, high achieving athlete in my younger days, and Yes, be very goal oriented in my business ventures to this day, I would have to say my thought process has mellowed. I don't set many goals anymore because I have reached most of my original goals and am very happy with where my life if right now. Most things are on 'cruise control' now.
If you never get the "can I do that" feeling that drives you crazy, I doubt you can really answer the OP.

 

[skribs]

My primary goal is to have fun. If I have fun, I'll keep showing up, and I'll get all of the other benefits (exercise, skill, self-defense, confidence, belts, etc.).

I recently moved, and in the move switched from Taekwondo (3rd degree) to start brand new at BJJ. I joined a TKD school here with the goal of getting 4th degree. I felt I wasn't learning anything, wasn't getting enough of a workout, and that the TKD school here was actually harming my skills. I quit that school to go to BJJ full time. At that point, I made the decision that my health and education were more important than my belt in TKD.

The only reason my belt would matter to me is if I were to open my own school. I still haven't quite figured out how that's going to work.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Where do you see yourself in five years?"

I'm in maintenance mode and no longer in development mode. In 5 years, I'll be happy that if I can still

- swing my leg over my head,
- inside/outside crescent kick over my head.
- touch my hand on my foot.

If I can still do that, I will still have my flexibility and balance.

 

[HighKick]

I'm in maintenance mode and no longer in development mode. In 5 years, I'll be happy that if I can still

- swing my leg over my head,
- inside/outside crescent kick over my head.
- touch my hand on my foot.

If I can still do that, I will still have my flexibility and balance.

I feel ya.
And, for me, this speaks to my comment to @skribs (I think) about not ranking up anymore. At my current rank, another testing typically would not amount to much physically and be somewhat honorary, but that is just not me. Every Dan test I have ever, had (13 in total), I did the testing day from beginning to end, and my portion of the actual test lasted from 2-6 hours.
Since me and the 'itis brothers' have a very hate-hate relationship and I am looking at my 4th and 5th joint replacement in 2024, I just don't think I could do that again.
My weight is still okay, and my endurance is decent, but my motion is terrible (in an agile MA's sense).

 

[J. Pickard]

I really just enjoy MA as a whole. Im driven to learn more fjust for the sake of learning. I love seeing the parallels between different arts and gaining a better understanding of the mechanics of the human body. I dont think I have ever really had an end goal, I never really cared about the belts, I just wanted more.